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What's really at stake in the Edition Wars

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Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Changes to something always imply that something was wrong with the original, whether that was intended or not, and some people can't help but take it personally.

If my wife changes her hair color, it does not mean something was wrong with the prior color, it just means she felt like trying a different color. And if I go into a restaurant I've been to before and order something different from what I ordered last time, that does not imply there was something wrong with my prior meal there.

Change does not always imply something was wrong before. It often means you just feel like it's time to try something different, despite being pleased with what came before.
 
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billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him) 🇺🇦🇵🇸🏳️‍⚧️
Change does not always imply something was wrong before. It often means you just feel like it's time to try something different, despite being pleased with what came before.

Not always, but not all changes imply the same things. Clearly, the change in editions in D&D means a lot more to a lot of people than changing hair color.

Edit: Though I will add, that for some people, graying hair is a traumatic experience (particularly when you're just in high school or college). For them, coloring their hair is a big deal.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
I'm using the term as Jay Bolter and Richard Grusin use it. To paraphrase quite a bit, I am refering to a given rules set as a medium. According to them, a medium is "that which remediates. It is that which appropriates the techniques, forms, and social significance of other media and attempts to rival or refashion them in the name of the real" (65).

Ugh. I call obfuscative language abuse! (Not on you, but on Bolter and Grusin)

Base simplicity - a medium should be that which mediates, and a "remedium" should be that which remediates.

I don't think one can generally say that anything in D&D is done "in the name of the real", if only because we probably won't agree on what "the real" is (or if it even exists) in this context.

But what new media claims to do is to bring a more authentic experience of reality than its predecessor(s).

That might work well for art - where an artwork might considered to be an expression of reality that the artist is attempting to communicate to the audience. I am not sure you can make that claim for RPGs, in general. I don't even know if it is a sound claim to make of art, in general. New media don't necessarily claim to bring a "more authentic" experience of reality - merely a different experience of reality.

Television is a medium (even a 'remedium'). But does it claim to be "more authentic" than stage plays? Hardly. It is more accessible and more convenient to my daily life. I'd think authenticity is not part of the medium itself, but of the individual work within the medium.

So, overall, I'm not sure I like the definition you present at all.

(It also sounds like faulty application of outmoded ideas of evolution to artistic work, but that's a separate digression more suited for the media or OT forums than here).
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Change does not always imply something was wrong before. It often means you just feel like it's time to try something different, despite being pleased with what came before.

Agreed. One may choose to change because something was wrong, but also for other reasons. If I go out to see a new movie, does that mean there was something "wrong" with the last movie I saw? If I pick up a new book, was there something "wrong" with the old author?
 

Merkuri

Explorer
If my wife changes her hair color, it does not mean something was wrong with the prior color, it just means she felt like trying a different color. And if I go into a restaurant I've been to before and order something different from what I ordered last time, that does not imply there was something wrong with my prior meal there.

So, let's say your wife changes her hair color and walks into work and a coworker might say, "You dyed your hair? What was wrong with the old color?" That would be a valid thing to ask. The fact that your wife changed it implies something was wrong with the old color.

Note that "imply" doesn't equate to "true meaning". Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with 3e, nor do I think Wizards thought that when they released 4e. But the simple existence of 4e implies (probably incorrectly) that 3e is somehow wrong. It's certainly not a far step for someone to assume that's what WotC was thinking.

Agreed. One may choose to change because something was wrong, but also for other reasons. If I go out to see a new movie, does that mean there was something "wrong" with the last movie I saw? If I pick up a new book, was there something "wrong" with the old author?

I'd also like to point out that the restauraunt order, movie choice, and book choice are all examples of picking something different, not necessarily changing something that already existed.

If you were making a meal at home, and the second time you made it you added more salt it implies that the original recipe didn't have enough salt (it was wrong, in your opinion). If you were writing a movie script or a book and you changed a character's dialog it implies that you thought the original dialog was wrong.
 

Raven Crowking

First Post
One reason that the 3e to 4e edition wars raged so hotly may well be the (right or wrong) perception of how the change was characterized by WotC.

When 3e was coming, WotC did a large customer survey. I recall well the Dragon Magazine articles that said "Here's what you said you wanted, and here's how we're responding." This seemed to me to be inclusive and respectful.

When 4e was coming, the presentation seemed more like "This is what D&D is going to be like, whether you like it or not. We hope you like it." I know I certainly read it that way, although I admit (again) that this was an overreaction.

When parsing out the changes from 3e to 4e, it also became difficult because, whenever one tried to see the paradigm shift, there was a plethora of claims that the game had "always been that way". OTOH, whenever you tried to make sense of the game in terms of previous editions, there was a plethora of claims that, essentially, one had to accept a paradigm shift to do so. Which was it?

For me, the solution was to eventually decide that what D&D meant to me had nothing to do with the trademark name "Dungeons & Dragons" itself, and go my own way. And now I happily steal....er, convert....adventure materials from all editions, regardless of source. And MERP. And Harn. Etc.


RC
 

innerdude

Legend
While I don't doubt that personal identity is a factor, it fails to be the most parsimonious solution, in my opinion, and therefore its utility in explaining the phenomena widely is suspect. It rests on the unproven and unprovable assumption that edition warriors invest their personal identity in the game to such an extent that changes to the game threaten their identity.

A simpler solution, and one that surely applies to many edition warriors, is what's been stated earlier: 1) concern that with an edition change, it will be materially more difficult to find a group of like-minded gamers with whom to play his game of choice, and 2) concern that support for the game will disappear. These are real, as well as proximate and immediate concerns, whereas self-identity as a gamer of a certain edition is, by its nature, a speculative claim.

This was absolutely the most immediate element for me with the switch. When 4e was released, I knew I would be moving to start graduate school in a matter of months, separating me from my long-time 3.x gaming group.

I also knew, due to the location where I would be in school, that if there was going to be any kind of D&D gaming scene in my new town, that it would likely be focused on the newest edition, because it was "new," and it was the only "official" D&D (at the time, pre-Pathfinder) that was going to be supported.

And guess what.....I was right. The only D&D groups of I've had invites to play in were 4th ed campaigns. I actually have ended up compromising by playing a Star Wars Saga Edition game, but I'll take a good fantasy roleplaying campaign over Star Wars any day.

Of course, Hobo's assertion doesn't fully describe WHY I preferred D&D 3.x over 4e to begin with. For me, it wasn't primarily about identity, as many have defined (although there was a definite element of "fandom," I'll admit). For me, it was the fact that the style of roleplaying I preferred, and that the long-time group I had played with inculcated, did not seem to be as inherently integral to the design goals of the 4th edition product.

And of course, since my way of roleplaying is the only right way, everyone should bow before my demands, right? ;)

However, as I pointed out in a previous thread, I personally could have handled the 4th Edition transition much better if I felt that Wizards of the Coast wasn't being so disingenuous about its production, its design goals, and the product's ultimate place in their long-term business strategy. Thus, my stake in the edition war is really no longer the rules themselves. Shoot, go knock yourselves out playing any edition you want. I've got Pathfinder, and I will do my darndest to get people to play it if a group ever asked for my input, but if I had a group I trusted that wanted to play 4e, I probably would.

However,

To me, the stake now is in the ethics and business practices of the companies I wish to support in the future, because those practices ultimately affect my options for playing. My personal stake in the matter is that if we as fans show "blind loyalty" to a product--any product--that's foisted upon us as "the next great thing," and we as the willing masses simply buy it because it has the right logo printed on the cover, that ultimately the quality of gaming--universally, across the board--suffers. Because at that point, design decisions ARE NOT MADE WITH THE INTENT TO IMPROVE THE GAMING EXPERIENCE, they are made to capitalize on the highest return on investment. If we're really really lucky, a smart company will try to do both--but if one side gets sacrificed in the face of expediency, guess which one it's going to be?

Like it or not, D&D is the Microsoft of the RPG world. It sets the trends. And my worst fear is that 4th Edition is the first step into the "Microsoftization" of D&D--where expediency and quarterly profits are more important than really producing something GOOD. And if the "Microsoft" principle of D&D holds true, we are likely to get one good version of "Windows" (aka D&D) about every three releases.

In the past, I don't think this was the case. I think most of us felt that every edition of D&D had a level of transparency. Yes, there were disagreements about which edition handled rules better, but I don't think most of us, even in the days of early 3.0, felt that the edition change was an attempt to simply get us to "buy stuff." There were clear elements of design improvement that were pointed to as evolutionary.

But with 4th Edition, it felt to me that Wizards of the Coast, as evidenced by many of their corporate decisions around the same time as the 4e release, had fallen prey to the "corporate imperative" rather than the "customer imperative"--radical rules revision largely breaking backwards compatibility, the bungled marketing campaign ("Your badwrongfun must stop!"), yanking old PDFs from online vendors, the horrendous original GSL license, the largely unfulfilled promise of the DDI initiative. All of it had a distinctly "Windows Vista" feel to it--a corporation releasing a functional but half-baked product that many people didn't particularly feel needed to be released, but was foisted upon us anyway, because it was "better" than what we already had.

Ultimately, my "stake," or investment in D&D is to maintain a broad, vibrant community of gamers, but to also ensure that opportunities to play the RPG of my choice continue at the highest rate possible. And as a result, I have a vital, protective interest in the Market Leader of my chosen hobby producing a product that meets that need.
 
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Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
When 3e was coming, WotC did a large customer survey. I recall well the Dragon Magazine articles that said "Here's what you said you wanted, and here's how we're responding." This seemed to me to be inclusive and respectful.

When 4e was coming, the presentation seemed more like "This is what D&D is going to be like, whether you like it or not. We hope you like it." I know I certainly read it that way, although I admit (again) that this was an overreaction.

That was my recollection as well- I was a subscriber to Dragon at the time, and remember seeing the surveys they did. It was impossible to miss. But I have no recollection of similar queries for 4Ed- I'm not saying it didn't happen, just that I don't recall seeing any of it.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Not always, but not all changes imply the same things. Clearly, the change in editions in D&D means a lot more to a lot of people than changing hair color.

Edit: Though I will add, that for some people, graying hair is a traumatic experience (particularly when you're just in high school or college). For them, coloring their hair is a big deal.

I think for an awful lot of people, changing hair color is a lot more meaningful than what edition of a role playing game they prefer to play. Their hair is something seen by everyone, every day. Their role playing game is something they might do once a month or so.
 

Ourph

First Post
My investment in D&D is to maintain a broad, vibrant community of gamers but to also ensure that the community will also have enough players that enjoy the style of gameplay I prefer, so that I can maximize my enjoyment of the product.
How exactly does participating in edition wars accomplish this? :erm:
 

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