What's really at stake in the Edition Wars

[DaveMage]

. I think 3e might have been an aberration, converting more groups than could be expected because it was a great game....*snip*

*IS* a great game.

 

[Ariosto]

Way back when Wizards introduced its first new D&D game, along with new licenses, Ryan Dancey (IIRC) set out a theory of added value based on "network externalities".

Maybe some people who bought into that new D&D also bought into that theory of value.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I don't think it's fair or reasonable to expect the insulted party to be responsible for keeping the peace by ignoring obvious insults, ...

The problem is that a lot of the time (especially in the videogamey example you were responding to) the problem is that people *choose to take offence* at things which are not actual insults.

If someone calls you a *&($£ then they are insulting you. If they say that 4e/3e/whatever is stupid, they are not insulting you.

It is important that people recognise the difference.

Cheers

 

[Raven Crowking]

I will say this: My opinion of 4e, right now, is a lot better than it was after the initial release. And a lot of that is due to people who were willing to discuss problems that I had without taking those problems as personal attacks.

A number of these same people started out "taking sides" (or, at least, that's how I read their responses), but either they grew over the course of the conversation or I did, because by the end it seems that we had things of value to say to each other.

(Most of you know who you are, because I've given XP when I could.)

Shutting down the conversation never accomplishes that.


RC

 

[Ourph]

If someone calls you a *&( then they are insulting you. If they say that 4e/3e/whatever is stupid, they are not insulting you.

To be clear, the post I was responding to postulated a hypothetical situation in which the use of the word "videogamey" was intentionally used as an insult to people who play the game by the person using the term.

 

[korjik]

Well, that's the problem with the SchroCat core rules - about half the people who open the book have a lively experience, the other half are like yourself. I'm told that if you never actually open it, you get mixed results.

I'd draw a comparison to the HeisenSystem, but I'm not sure where I'd be going with that analogy...

I remember that game. The more I learned the rules, the harder it was to find a place to play.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

But it's when you relate a particular game or edition to a "chocolate covered jalapeno stuffed turdmuffin" that you start edition wars. Just because one person doesn't like something doesn't make it a "turdmuffin."

That's not what I said.

What I said was that if you keep trying to refute their personal perceptions with debate and logic, you might as well be telling them to try chocolate covered jalepano stuffed turdmuffins. Its game elements, not the game itself.

The turdmuffins, in this case are the game elements that you keep telling them are just fine when in fact they dislike them intensely. Or more accurately, the elements become more and more turdmuffinlike in my mind the more someone tells me to try them this way or that way, or even worse, "you're not thinking about them the right way- the designers idea was ____________." Welcome to Turdmuffinistan!

To tone down the example a bit- I wrote it that way because I'd had enough of people telling me to try chocolate covered jalepano stuffed turdmuffins for the day- imagine trying to convince a 4 year old to eat asparagus and/or brussels sprouts after they've already complained "They taste nasty!" (And have, in fact, tasted the veggies.)

No matter how much you tell that kid to try that asparagus, you're going to meet resistance because he's already made up his mind.

Now, its possible he may change his opinion some time in the future- usually if he experiments with them of his own free will. But every time you try to feed the kid asparagus, you're in for a war.

When it comes to things like Healing Surges and other videogamey mechanics, I'll paraphrase the words of Theodore Geisel, "I do not want them in the box, I do not want them with a fox, I do not want them, 4Ed lovers, now try to change the views of others."

 

[Wild Gazebo]

~ comment removed by Admin. If you think something might be offensive, don't say it please ~

Sorry...didn't mean to be offensive... but

 

[Lanefan]

Whereas Lanefan's definition applies an attribute to the game I disagree with and I stated my opinion in that regard. With more discussion we may discover what "walls" Lanefan is finding in 4E.

You're assuming I was defining the term specifically in relation to 4e, which is not the case. That said, though I don't play 4e I have the first round of core books and a few of the adventures; and IMHO there's certainly a few areas where the rules *are* the invisible wall because they get in the way between me and what I want from the game. (a few quick examples: the large gap between commoner/minion and 1st-level; intentional design decision not to simulate reality where possible; too-fast healing, etc.)

And further discussion of how to remove those walls may not help Lanefan enjoy the game, but might help a player of 4E with similar issues enjoy the game more. I'm not trying to prove anyone "wrong."

Fair enough, and well said.

Lan-"rules are like hockey referees: at their best when unnoticed"-efan

 

[Maggan]

My experience contradicts your experience, so I reject your effort to impose your version of reality on me.

I think this is an interesting comment, even if made in jest.

To me, there is no need to reject your reality, and substitute it with my own. In reality, both (and many more) realities can exist at the same time.

For one person, D&D4e is the bee's knees and everyone is playing it, and for another, no one is playing it. And both situations can co-exist.

The trouble comes from people trying to extrapolate one isolated situation and claim that this is the norm and the whole of reality. And then it is further complicated when that extrapolation is used to underscore an argument that one edition or the other rules supreme.

I endeavour to talk about my experiences, and what I see around me. I try as hard as I can NOT to extrapolate those experiences and claim that my picture of things is the true reality.

That way, all I say about e.g. D&D4e is way less inflammatory, for I claim to speak for no one but myself.

My reality is the same reality you live in, but the weather here is different from the weather at your place. So is gaming.

/M