What's stopping WOTC from going back to 3.5?

[prosfilaes]

Seems like an overgeneralization to me. How many levels in a class counts as a "dip?"

From reading the optimization boards, clerics and wizards shouldn't take any other class except for prestige classes with full casting. The main place I've seen dipping is in trying to build a reasonably powerful monk. I'd really like to see these examples of where dipping is making an overpowered character.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

? Wizard, cleric and druid, the big three in power, don't class dip.

They certainly stack unbalanced prestige classes and feats that were never tested together.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Just as a point about 3.5 splats.

What power creep? I see people are accepting power creep as a fact of life, but, I have to ask, what power creep?

Every splat caster was weaker than core casters. The splats generally lowered casters down and raised up non-casters, which is something most people agreed needed to be done.

I love it when people say, "Core Only" because I can make the most powerful, most wahoo characters then.

Splats didn't increase power creep, they actually put a pretty strong limit on it. Take a campaign, replace Clerics with Favored Souls, Wizards with Warlocks and Truenamers, and boot Druids to the curb and you have a MUCH lower power game.

You want power creep, look at 2e with splats. Yikes! 3.5 splats, by and large, did very little to increase the power of characters and generally went out of their way to balance existing material.

Oh ye gods and fishes, the later 2e splats were horrible that way. *Shudder*

I will also admit that the feats I considered unbalanced, as a DM, were also some of my favorite feats, as a DM. Specifically the Reserve feats, so unbalancing, but so convenient.

As for power creep, prestige classes, and casters... most of that I saw was for sorcerer, which did not give up much taking a prestige class. Pathfinder did give them a power nudge, but the class has so much more flavor now. I actually see sorcerers in my game now, which just didn't happen with 3.5.

All else being equal though, I doubt that WotC will try to pick the 3.X engine up again, and, really, I don't think that they need to - 4e is doing well enough, even if it is not something that I would want to play. If the 4e players are having fun, and the 3.X/P players are having fun, then why fix what ain't broke?

The Auld Grump

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

From reading the optimization boards, clerics and wizards shouldn't take any other class except for prestige classes with full casting. The main place I've seen dipping is in trying to build a reasonably powerful monk. I'd really like to see these examples of where dipping is making an overpowered character.

I don't really care about CharOp board builds- I build PCs to be 3 dimensional, fun and interesting, not pure combat masters. As you may now guess, I have many multiclassed full casters. Only a subset of those are multiclassed into full casting PrCls- most are multiclassed with non-casting classes.

I'm not saying you can't roleplay CharOp PCs in such a fashion. Optimization is not inherently in conflict with roleplay. However, by following the advice you find there exclusively, you limit your ability to play a world's worth of interesting PCs.

 

[prosfilaes]

I don't really care about CharOp board builds- I build PCs to be 3 dimensional, fun and interesting, not pure combat masters. As you may now guess, I have many multiclassed full casters. Only a subset of those are multiclassed into full casting PrCls- most are multiclassed with non-casting classes.

I was responding to "Splat book power creep came from the class dipping."

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I was responding to "Splat book power creep came from the class dipping."

Ah- missed that! Sorry!

 

[Desdichado]

I am not denying those are powerful but they became more so with feats from the splat books and i've seen monstrous builds in game from class dipping in splats. If you are going tor magic, sure going all druid makes sense. However i always found standard spellcasters easy to challenge and balance out, the uber builds are what always threw a wrench in my games.

Yeah, well... bad players will tend to do that.

Curiously, we only have one charop type guy in our group... and frankly, it's like a golf handicap for him. Sure, he always seems to make builds that are almost comically broken, yet he's always the player who gets his characters killed the most.

 

[Bedrockgames]

From reading the optimization boards, clerics and wizards shouldn't take any other class except for prestige classes with full casting. The main place I've seen dipping is in trying to build a reasonably powerful monk. I'd really like to see these examples of where dipping is making an overpowered character.

I was thinking of characters like the machine gun assassin.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Yeah, well... bad players will tend to do that.

Curiously, we only have one charop type guy in our group... and frankly, it's like a golf handicap for him. Sure, he always seems to make builds that are almost comically broken, yet he's always the player who gets his characters killed the most.

Yes this is very player dependent. Many will avoid taking advantage of broken rules and the GM can simply prohibit them. But I still found the game became quite cluttered for my tastes after all the splats.

On a side note, I once ran a campaign for a group of optimizers, and while it isn't my personal style, I had a great time. I was also forced to optimize NPCs and monsters just to keep things challenging. Learned a good deal about the system doing that. Normally I am not into that kind of play, but I can see its appeal.

 

[Desdichado]

Yes this is very player dependent. Many will avoid taking advantage of broken rules and the GM can simply prohibit them. But I still found the game became quite cluttered for my tastes after all the splats.

I always say it's better to have an option you don't want than it is to want an option you don't have. :shrug:

After years of playing, we're all a little tired of the "standard" races and class combos, frankly. We're looking to do something new.

On top of that, I'm always frustrated by the inherent magical nature of all the classes. Of the 11 core clases in the PHB, only four don't have some kind of spell-casting progression, and the monk is still chock-full of supernatural special abilities. Only three of eleven core classes are non-magical?!

Anyway, if offends my sense of world-building, verisimilitude, and the kind of swashbuckling sword and sorcery fantasy that I like. I'm very glad to have more options, especially the ones in Complete Warrior and Complete Adventurer, and the alternate classes in books like The d20 Freeport Companion, for instance.

I also like psionics as an alternative to magic.

Basically, I just don't really like D&D magic, I think. So splatbooks to me are pretty crucial to give me alternatives.