What's the big deal with "feat taxes?"

ok i have not played for 35 years...in fact slightly less then half that...

BUT I have seen ALOT of house rules that were bad in retrospect...I will just list ours from 2e

spell points.
anyone can specilize in weapons
no spell prep
dabbling (variant multi class)
archmages(3rd party but maybecounts)
clerics get all spheres
choose your own wild talents
all classes get base starting theif skills

and after the newer books had max hp ar 1st level we still rolled

then one from matts game in 3e...

roll 4d6 re roll 1's and 2's generate 10 numbers then drop the 4 lowest...then do so again and a third time so you have 3 sets of 6 stats... then choose the set you want, if you do not have an 18 raise your highest stat to 18... then choose up to 2 flaws, 2 traits, any race or class or spell or feat from any D20 fantasy system... start level 3 with DMG starting money for level 5...

no that was not a one time game...that was matts defualt 3.5 rules for the entire time I was playing with him...

Sorry for continuing this line of discussion, everyone, but GM, half of the things on your list could work as houserules with the correct implementation, or in an appropriate campaign.

What you're describing is a DM problem (or problems)--not a problem with the concept or practice of houseruling.
 

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I have played games with 2d10, 3d6, including playing D&D with both variants... it does not work as smoothly as you might think...
Wait, what? I wasn't commenting on the merits or flaws of using multiple dice; I was just saying that the math works differently in such a system. A +1 is actually different, depending on where you start, in such a system.

If I get the feeling, that everyone should get that freebie some time in his career, ok... maybe I would integrate it into the story... but at level 1 I currently see no reasons to make gifts...
I agree with you here. The math hole doesn't start until mid-heroic tier. I suspect that Expertise and Improved Defenses start at 1st level simply to be consistent with other feats. But that's not a compelling reason to give them away at 1st.
 

Because it is true in most cases: making balanced house rules is a lot of work that often does not pay of... or worse, has a negative impact on the game...
if it pays of, it was usually ignoring RAW instead of adding something to that...


You know, put me in the camp you like... i happily ignore RAW if it is necessary, but I see no necessarity here in this case...
If you'll look at my sig, you'll see two houserules that I'm quite confident in asserting are simpler, more fun, and more balanced than raw. Not all house rules achieve that, but I've never in my entire experience of D&D ever regretted introducing a houserule.

Not that I usually do so, but I'm the kind of person who might well spreadsheet various options on level up. I've written simulators for 3.5 era combat to balance ranger's dual wielding with barbarian's power attacking (the ranger needed quite a bump), and lots of smaller scenario's in 4e. My thesis is in statistical machine learning, and I play with lots of numbers in lots of ways all the time - I don't mind, I like that! But a numerical system is interesting when it's complex (in the sense of chaos theory, or balance and not imaginary numbers) - and it's boring when there's an obvious "right" answer.

It's a very reasonable to stick with RAW if you don't want to take the effort to analyze something, and furthermore, D&D isn't just numbers; gameplay is a significant factor.

Nobody's going to blame you for sticking with RAW. But the risk of handing out free expertise is negligible (at worst it represents a bonus feat), but doing so ensures that intra-party balance is approved as the power difference between the power gamers with expertise and the special flowers without it shrinks.

And you don't need to take it from the mouth of a self-important forum poster (i.e., me...) - I believe many home games by WotC staff use this or a similar house rule as well.

To stress: this isn't forcing everyone to be a powergamer, and this isn't going to boost the powergamers to even more absurd heights since it's precisely the unoptimized characters that benefit most. Boosting low attack bonuses matters more than boosting high bonuses, and what really matters most is intra-party balance.

@eamon : and what do you do with the hunter, who gets expertise for free?
Depends on your solution. The easiest and most reasonable is just to instead grant them a bonus feat of their choice. In practice you're giving others an extra feat too, after all.

look, i am not totally opposed to give out expertise for free... I would even give out 2 different expertise feats for different classes, maybe a fighter would gain a third...
but If someone honestly tells me he rather had an extra skill point, I would not want to tell him "no: skills are fine and well, but you know, this is D&D and D&D is about combat only..."
If somebody wanted that, I'd be so inclined too - it's a cooperative game, after all. I would tell them that I'd prefer them not to do that however - you can't choose to give up the half-level bonus to be the arch-dukes favorite son, either (I'm trying to say you can't trade out-of-combat favors for in-combat power or vice-versa), and they're making the DM's life harder by doing so. In practice, this kind of this never comes to a head in my experience, so there's no point in discussing hypotheticals here. I'd offer free expertise, and if maybe possibly somebody wants to trade that for something else - well, that depends on the situation.

Again, this freebie is particularly important for underpowered PC's, so you really don't want people trading this away for something else. Tell em it's a math fix, not intended as a bonus ability, and they should keep it.

If I get the feeling, that everyone should get that freebie some time in his career, ok... maybe I would integrate it into the story... but at level 1 I currently see no reasons to make gifts...
Many people do it at level 5. Doing it at level 1 might be considered cleaner or simpler (get it over with, already!), but I certainly don't care either way.
 

Sorry for continuing this line of discussion, everyone, but GM, half of the things on your list could work as houserules with the correct implementation, or in an appropriate campaign.

What you're describing is a DM problem (or problems)--not a problem with the concept or practice of houseruling.

matt is a great DM and I alwayenjoy his games...I bet he could run fatal or world of cinabar and I would like it... his house rules still suck...and are unbalanced...but fun.


Infact the reason those house rules (some lasted 10+ years) lasted becuse they are fun... and I would use them again if we went back to 2e becuse they are better then raw... BUT THEY ARE UNBALANCED AND OVERPOWERED...
 

Well, this is starting to get a bit nasty.

My thoughts on feat taxes are that they are really not taxes, just choices (admittedly very very good choices) but can be ignored, and are not really required unless the DM plays things so they are required. If the DM uses a lot of level +4 monsters, yes, expertise really looks critical. But if the DM uses more level +0 monsters, it is much less of an issue.

SO it boils down to the group's playstyle as all such arguments basically do.
 

SO it boils down to the group's playstyle as all such arguments basically do.

this...100% this.

Sometimes I get so wrapped up in trying to get people to see my side that I forget that we all play diffrent games. The truth is that in a game full of skill challanges skill focus and skill training is a good choice, one with no common tounge and a dozen extra languages then linguastics looks like a must...

at the end of the day sometimes it is based on the game and the GM...an no amount of internet arguments mean anything...
 

[threadjack]
37 years of D&D, in all its incarnations, disagrees with you.
[/threadjack]
Those houserules are most surely very unbalanced, but maybe a lot fun...

You know what. I am arguing for a something i am not really agreeing with, so i better stop... and have a last statement

Houserules: yes please...
giving out expertise for free: no thanks...

balance is not a sacred cow... and this is why expertise is not needed in my opinion...
on the other hand, I suggested it to every player today, just because i am tired of of feats in general... new players just don´t need them... so i am rather inclined to give everyone expertise as their first feat slot and be done with it...
 

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