What's the big deal with point buy?

[airwalkrr]

Seriously. What is the big deal? Every time I talk about starting up a campaign and I make plans for character creation, people ask me how I will be doing ability scores. When they find out I make them roll their ability scores (using the standard 3e method: 4d6, drop lowest, repeat total of six times, must have positive net modifiers and at least one score above 14, arrange as desired) they always complain. Here are the more common complaints.

"I have the worst luck at rolling dice so it's unfair to make me roll my ability scores."
(There is no statistical evidence that luck exists. I recognize bad dice exist, but they aren't as common as everyone thinks. Usually flaws on a die have an unremarkable effect upon the randomness of that die's rolls.)

"Whoever rolls the highest is going to end up dominating the whole campaign. That's not fair at all. I want to be able to have the spotlight sometimes too."
(Ability scores are not the be-all, end-all in 3e. Although they are arguably more significant at lower levels, the higher you get in level, the less ability scores matter because things like magic, skills, class abilities, and feats easily make up for those deficiencies. A well-built character with average ability scores will be better in most cases than a poorly built character with better ability scores, but two equally well-built characters with differing ability scores rarely have an appreciable power difference.)

"That's so horribly broken! You mean if I roll five 18s I get to play a character with five 18s!?"
(The statistical probability of this happening is so ridiculously low that it is hardly worth mentioning. Your character might get a higher than expected roll, but it is unlikely to be THAT good, and as I said above, ability scores aren't everything, nor are they the most important part of the equation.)

"Characters who roll high steal other characters' niches."
(See above. A wizard with an 18 Dexterity is not going to be better at Hide than the rogue with max ranks unless the rogue has a negative Dexterity modifier.)

"If I don't get the ability scores I want, I can't play the character I want."
(This might have been valid in AD&D when there were ability score prerequisites. But no character class is unplayable with any set of ability scores as long as there is some kind of safety net like the PH recommends. As long as you create a solid build, you will be a valuable member of the party. Your character might not be uber-1337, but if that is what you mean by having the character you want, then I find that to be a very spoiled attitude.)

And so on. Quite frankly, I am very disappointed in the attitude most gamers have towards rolling dice. I mean, dice is what the game is about. There is an element of luck in almost every other aspect of the game from height and weight to saving throws to attack rolls to skill checks.

Do you make your PCs roll or do you use point buy? It seems like every other DM I know uses point buy and I cannot help but feel that point buy has spoiled a lot of players into thinking they can create a character with no holes. This isn't chess. It's D&D. There is randomness in the game and I think players need to get over it. Call me old fashioned, but I don't think point buys are as great of an "equalizer" as people seem to think they are. To me, the only advantage to point buy is that you can allow PCs to create more powerful characters if you want to run a more powerful campaign. I recognize the need for point buys in massive campaigns such as living campaigns where it is impossible to police everyone's rolls, but for my home campaign, I think a point buy is needless.

 

[Victim]

As you say, there are already a large number of random factors in the game. Why have one more; isn't the results of the game already random enough without adding so much chance at the very start?

And most other rolls don't cascade the same way the roll for stats does. A poor roll on one check may not make a long term difference in the game, but a poor roll on stats does.

Making up for deficiencies is overrated - sure, you can work to counteract your weaker stats, but characters with high stats can work to leverage their advantages. In fact, they probably have an easier time of it. While a disparity in mechanical tricks can make up a disparity in stats - if the more power gamed character has the low stats - its equally likely that you'll end up with a poorly built character with low stats and a well designed PC with high stats.

EDIT: Oh yeah. Point buy also makes it easier to make characters without the GM present. Whenever possible, our group makes characters between games to minimize the time it takes to start.

 

[ThoughtBubble]

Personally, I dislike random rolls with no adjustments.

In our last D&D campaign, I really wanted to play a paladin. Sure, mostly mediocre guy, but I'd pump up his cha with a good stat roll and play the party spokesman who happens to be a pretty decent fighter. I got a 6, a 5, a 9, a 13, a 16 and an 18. The numbers in my head didn't mesh too well with the numbers that I rolled. The character I had invisioned had decent strength and constitution, and a good wisdom and charisma. So, I played a wizard instead. But the game started with a major dissapointment. I couldn't do what I wanted to this game.

I like point buy because it allows me to mold my character a bit more into something I want. If I want to dual wield, I'd better have a high enough dex. If I want whirlwind attack, I'm going to need a decent int too.

Here's my question to everyone on this issue. "Do you believe that players have the right to play as the character they want?" Point buy is a tool for allowing that degree of choice.

 

[Phasics]

I guess the thing some peopl like about point buy is fact you can garentee you get the right number of scores for your class

e.g.
Take a Paladin, now a Paladin needs a good STR CON WIS and CHA modifer whereas the Rogue really only needs a good DEX and INT score

in a 28 point buy system a Paladin can basically garentee that he'll get 14 14 14 12 10 10 thus can have postivie modifers in all his primary stats (not overly high but positive none the less)

however in a 4d6 drop lowest the paladin might get 1-2 good scores and the rest very average also he may get several odd scores and lose out on that extra +1. he might get 17 13 11 12 10 10. which means he can only cover 3 of his prime stats with pos modifers


Conversly classes like Rogue where as long as you have a good DEX score your doing fine the chances of getting one score above 16 are quite good so you might as well take the chance you could get several good scores.

Another possibilty is the point buy allow the option of getting a garenteed 18, costly but possible. now for a spell caster an 18 in casting stat is a huge boon initally and long term. consider if a player was unlucky enough to roll nothing higher than a 13 and played a spellcaster they wouldnt be able to cast 7th level spells until lv 16 and 8th level spell until lv20, and never see 9th level spells non epic . Assuming low magic campain with no ability boosters

Personally my DM lets us roll 4d6 but lets us pick our class after stat rolling in case we get a particular good or bad set. e.g. you'd hate to roll 4 16's and be playing a fighter instead of a paladin


So in short point buy can have its place in protecting specific stat demand classes.

Perhaps you could offer your players to roll 3d6 (reroll 1's and 2's) with a small pool of pointbuy points say 10 so that they can then adjust thier scores if they dont like it too random?

 

[Phasics]

EDIT: Oh yeah. Point buy also makes it easier to make characters without the GM present. Whenever possible, our group makes characters between games to minimize the time it takes to start.

what your DM dosent trust you when you say you rolled 18 18 18 18 18 17 at home before the game session ?

 

[FireLance]

People who like point buy have their reasons, and people who like rolling have their reasons, and each side's reasons seem silly, illogical or downright dangerous to the other. It's similar to the way that many people on opposite sides of the political spectrum cannot understand each others' positions.

For the record, I use point buy, and all PCs in my campaign get the same amount of XP and wealth, too.

 

[QuaziquestGM]

In my experince, people who only play the characters that they want to play never really learn to play the game. Steve is always the elf archer or the elf monk. Jon is always the sneaky guy or the evil fighter. Sara is yet another Kender. They may become reasonably proficient with one class, or at playing one paticular character, but hand them anything else, even a pregen, and they have no clue what to do. I'm more impressed by people who can guide the survival and triumphs of a randomly rolled character than I am of people of have to cherry pick. The best players will occationally make it though a session in such a way that their Stats don't matter, becasue they never have to roll dice.

As for players' rights...the GM decides those. If everyone is rolling stats, then that is fair.

 

[Master of the Game]

I use point buy. If nothing else, it makes the players feel as though they're starting on equal footing.

 

[arscott]

I think the previous posters have some very good points. Ability Scores are going to stay with the character forever and effect everything he or she does. I don't think it's unreasonable to want to limit the effectiveness of a bad roll to a smaller portion of the game.

And there's a world of difference between 18 15 12 11 9 6 and 15 14 12 12 11 10, and what those distributions mean for a character. If you're looking for a particular distribution, then you're going to be out of luck. And while I'm not going to look fondly on a guy who's whining because he didn't get an 18 str for his barbarian, I'm going to be pretty damned sympathetic if he couldn't manage a 14.

 

[pawsplay]

In our last D&D campaign, I really wanted to play a paladin. Sure, mostly mediocre guy, but I'd pump up his cha with a good stat roll and play the party spokesman who happens to be a pretty decent fighter. I got a 6, a 5, a 9, a 13, a 16 and an 18. The numbers in my head didn't mesh too well with the numbers that I rolled. The character I had invisioned had decent strength and constitution, and a good wisdom and charisma. So, I played a wizard instead. But the game started with a major dissapointment. I couldn't do what I wanted to this game.

True. That's a bummer of a roll, just technically above the limit for a do-over (+8 in bonuses, -6 in penalties). But you know, I think it would still be workable. Str 16, Dex 5, Con 9, Int 6, Wis 13, Cha 18. True, you'd be kind of slow in thought and action, but very persuasive, with nice saving throws. In the end, numbers are just numbers. Assuming you adventured that long, you could take a Dex increase at level 4 and a Con increase at level 8.