What's the difference between D20 Fantasy and D&D?

[Thurbane]

Personally, I really like the ingrained fluff in the D&D core books. And yes, it is a big part of what distinguishes D&D from generic-brand D20 Fantasy for me.

 

[DonTadow]

D20 Fantasy sounds like Grognard snobbery to me. There is no D20 Fantasy. Arcana Unearther/Evolved is just that, Arcana Unearthed/Evolved. Same with Iron Heroes or Conan, each have their own feel, their own philosophy. Its snobbish to label them under the same label, it implies they aren't their own games. Do you call Vampire simply Modern Horror? Do you call Star Wars D20 Space? Is Call of Cthulhu Victorian Horror? No, they are their own games, independent of each other. D20 supplements are basically D&D supplements because of the restriction in the D20STL requiring use of the PHB and 90% of D20 supplements are for D&D. Are they official? No but they are still for D&D.

I wouldn't say snobbery. It actually is beneficial to circulate the erm d20 fantasy because it unites all the games that don't fit into the specific 3.5 dungeons and dragons ruleset, ala iron heroes and arcana unearthed. It actually would be more snobbery of iron heroes and other systems if they didnt associate themselves with the d20 system that spawned them.

Your analogies don't hold water. d20 fantasy is a system, not a genre.

 

[PapersAndPaychecks]

To me, 3.x is d20 fantasy. It's a personal problem of mine that it really grates every time I hear d20 fantasy called "D&D." D20 fantasy has very little to do with the fundamental D&D system I grew up with.

It's got dwarf wizards and feats and square horses and AoO's.

I think this next bit is more than just my opinion... I think it's a matter of objective fact that mechanically, d20 fantasy is Rolemaster: The Evolution, with a Vancian magic system grafted on.

I don't think Vancian magic fits too well (they'd have done better to stick with the spell point system based on Mentalism and Essence and Channeling). And to me, alignments don't really fit it either. D20 is a 2nd generation RPG system, with the simplified, combined mechanics based on a single standardised die type, and it doesn't need alignments any more than Runequest or RM did.

To me, D&D means demi-human level limits and wacko material spell components and casting times of 6 segments and enthusiastic but amateurish artwork.

So you won't hear me calling 3.x "D&D".

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I think this next bit is more than just my opinion... I think it's a matter of objective fact that mechanically, d20 fantasy is Rolemaster: The Evolution, with a Vancian magic system grafted on.

I think you need to look up the definitions of "objective" and "fact."

D20 is the evolution of THACO from 2E and standardizing that resolution system throughout the game, instead of having a bunch of tables that work in different ways.

 

[el-remmen]

So you won't hear me calling 3.x "D&D".

And yet, it still is. . .

D&D as a concept is better off being inclusionary than exclusionary.

 

[Thurbane]

And yet, it still is. . .

D&D as a concept is better off being inclusionary than exclusionary.

Yes, by name, but to people like P&P, and me also, 3.X isn't "really" D&D.

Now this doesn't mean I don't love 3.X D&D, I do, I think it's a good system; but it barely resembles the D&D I grew up on. Any more than the modern Doctor Who is "really" the Doctor Who I grew up watching in the 70s.

I don't claim this as any sort of fact, just a personal opinion...

 

[Kishin]

Upon the reading the title of this thread originally, I was all set to chime in with a categorization of third party settings/products like Midnight that alter Core tropes significantly (Midnight has a spell point system, as an example) as d20 Fantasy, but then I thought about for a bit, and realized the vast majority of these still maintain the D&D feel.

So yeah, put me down for defining the difference as largely semantic and brought about by grognard snobbery, especially after reading this thread.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

To me, D&D means, at a minimum, Vancian spellcasting, the core races, and the four arch-core classes (fighter/fighting-man, wizard/magic-user, cleric and rogue/thief). Now, it doesn't have to use those names and it can excise bits and pieces - although it's worth noting that, with the exception of halflings in Dragonlance and, IIRC, gnomes in Basic/RC and Dark Sun, *none* of the officially published settings or versions of D&D since AD&D 1e have dropped even a single one of these elements. Even settings as outlandish as Dark Sun had basically the whole set of races and classes. Oh, and paladins got dropped from DS and Dragonlance, too.

In contrast to d20 fantasy, it also specifically means using the 3.5 or 3.0 core rules and/or the SRD as its basis, with everything in them assumed to be 'on' by default unless it's listed as an optional rule.

d20 fantasy, on the other hand, implies (to me) dropping significant portions of the D&D sacred cows, be it the class structure, the core races, Vancian spellcasting, etc. Perhaps more importantly, it implies getting to this point by outright using a different core book, be it Arcana Evolved (essentially 100% compatible but stand-along) or d20 Modern (probably 80% compatible and also standalone). d20 Modern is probably the 'default' for what I would call d20 fantasy over D&D and using it cements that it's the former rather than the latter. Alternately, Grim Tales.

I very much prefer what I call d20 fantasy, since it's better at modelling the kind of fantasy I like (broadly, either Sword & Sorcery in the Howardian tradition or anime/JRPG-style fantasy ala Final Fantasy, rather than epic/high fantasy in the Tolkienesque tradition).

 

[Aaron L]

3E bears as much resemblance to 1E as 1E did to OD&D.


Yet there is some artificial distinction between them that makes OD&D and 1E "D&D" yet not 3E?

 

[teitan]

I wouldn't say snobbery. It actually is beneficial to circulate the erm d20 fantasy because it unites all the games that don't fit into the specific 3.5 dungeons and dragons ruleset, ala iron heroes and arcana unearthed. It actually would be more snobbery of iron heroes and other systems if they didnt associate themselves with the d20 system that spawned them.

Your analogies don't hold water. d20 fantasy is a system, not a genre.

But they are their own, stand alone games. To alter my analogy a bit is Call of Cthulhu really just Runequest Modern Horror? It is its own game that shares similar mechanics but they are not totally compatible. Is Elric or Stormbringer just Runequest or to go a step farther BRP? Conan, Iron Heroes etc are their own games. Calling them D20 Fantasy implies they are the same game, that they use the exact same systems when in fact, they don't, just a lot of similarities, like the various BRP based games or WOD games. To call it D20 Fantasy is to imply to new players that they can play a Magister in Conan and it fit the system. Especially with regards to Conan. These games are all designed to balance within themselves, not with each other. We already have a lot of confusion about the D20STL and the OGL, why complicate matters with a false label that doesn't work under even the most minute scrutiny.