What's the point with Skill Tricks?

[Dark Psion]

Got Complete Scondrel today and one thing I am not sure of are the Skill Tricks. In concept they do sound good, especially since they save you from having to use a feat to get this bonus, but when you examine them, they really don't make sense.

For Example look at "Point it Out"; it has a prerequisite of 8 ranks of Spot, cost you 2 more skill points to take the trick and grants you the ability to yell to someone "There's a thief in the shadows behind you!"

Many of these Skill Tricks have a prerequsite of 12 ranks (+2 more for the Trick), and with 14 ranks in a skill, shouldn't you be able to Stand up immediately (Tumble), notice an Invisible enemy (Spot), Quickly escape from bonds (Escape Arist) or Pick a lock as a Swift action (Open Locks)?

 

[Particle_Man]

Many of these Skill Tricks have a prerequsite of 12 ranks (+2 more for the Trick), and with 14 ranks in a skill, shouldn't you be able to Stand up immediately (Tumble), notice an Invisible enemy (Spot), Quickly escape from bonds (Escape Arist) or Pick a lock as a Swift action (Open Locks)?

I think the DC for all of those things is higher than 15. Noticing invisible dudes adds 20 to the dude's hide, for example. Standing up without an Aoo is epic for tumble.

 

[Sejs]

Many of these Skill Tricks have a prerequsite of 12 ranks (+2 more for the Trick), and with 14 ranks in a skill, shouldn't you be able to Stand up immediately (Tumble), notice an Invisible enemy (Spot), Quickly escape from bonds (Escape Arist) or Pick a lock as a Swift action (Open Locks)?

Some of them, yes. Others, no.

Escape Artist normally takes a full minute to perform, so yeah, doing it quickly is something that is trick worthy.

Standing up from prone immediately is normally a DC 35 task. I would definitely take that as a trick.

Picking a lock normally takes a full round action. Doing it as a swift action is pretty much pointing at the lock and having it click open because you wanted it to.

Spotting an invisible enemy.. I'd have to actually read the trick description before passing judgement there.

On the whole, either it's doing something you'd not normally be able to do (that is, in less time than normal), or something you'd be able to do with a much higher DC check. Frankly, you're getting a discount.

 

[|)ar|{]

I can see a lot of reasons to take tricks. First of all skills are capped so if you want to be the best climber, tumbler or lock picker unless you take skill focus you are pretty much just as good as any other player who keeps that skill maxed. Tricks let you do something that sets you apart from people who simply keep max ranks in a skill. As a rogue there is little difference from having a +11 or +13 (skill focus picklock) but being able to open a lock as a swift action (I kinda think of it as the Fonzy bump) now that is impressive and something I'd gladly pay 2 skill points for.

 

[Unkabear]

(I kinda think of it as the Fonzy bump)

Great Now I will never call them skill tricks again.

 

[Crothian]

Ya, they just became cool

 

[Li Shenron]

I think the new mechanic is redundant. You can do all of them just with a higher DC.

[ BTW Standing up from prone is simply a design mistake of its own: DC 35 is at least 10 points higher than it should really be. ]

So eventually the benefit of a trick is that you can do something and succeed 100% of the attempts at an earlier level than normal. Depending on how earlier, the trick could be worth less or more than a feat itself. The reasons why tricks aren't simply new feats is that (1) many don't seem as useful as a feat, so the cost would be too high, and (2) they want Rogues, Bards and maybe Rangers to be masters of tricks, and they have lots of skill points to spend but not bonus feats.

Now, I wouldn't actually mind this trick system even if redundant, but it has a danger: it can be easily interpreted (and it's actually explicited at least in the preview) that without a trick you cannot do those stunts, which is just wrong IMHO.

 

[lukelightning]

For Example look at "Point it Out"; it has a prerequisite of 8 ranks of Spot, cost you 2 more skill points to take the trick and grants you the ability to yell to someone "There's a thief in the shadows behind you!"

I think in a horror setting, pointing out a lurking threat is a full round action. You know, in all those horror movies there is some terror-struck person gasping and pointing behind their friend who just says "what? what's up?" and then gets their brain sucked out through their nostrils by the cranionasal vampire.

 

[wolff96]

I think the new mechanic is redundant. You can do all of them just with a higher DC.

[ BTW Standing up from prone is simply a design mistake of its own: DC 35 is at least 10 points higher than it should really be. ]

Just wanted to comment on this one twice.

I really agree with the first comment.

And the second comment as well, though that's still too high. I can Kip Up, with no training, no martial arts background, and I'm only in semi-good shape. On top of that, I'm what, an Expert 2 by D&D rules? It isn't that tough of an action, just takes a little practice.

 

[VirgilCaine]

Just wanted to comment on this one twice.

I really agree with the first comment.

And the second comment as well, though that's still too high. I can Kip Up, with no training, no martial arts background, and I'm only in semi-good shape. On top of that, I'm what, an Expert 2 by D&D rules? It isn't that tough of an action, just takes a little practice.

IIRC, this was about doing w/o provoking an AoO. Have you tried it while two friends are swinging broomsticks at you? Were you able to fend them off with your broomstick?