What's the secret behind D&D's ability to sustain long term play?

[Quasqueton]

If that was the question from the Original Poster I must've missed it. Seemed to me, Gundark asked specifically about why d20 is better than Savage Worlds or any other edition at sustaining long term play.

Check out the title of the thread:

What's the secret behind D&D's ability to sustain long term play?

He never compared current D&D to earlier editions. He was comparing "D&D" and its mechanics, "d20", to other games.

Quasqueton

 

[Templeton580]

D&D hasn't sustained any long-term play for me in about 10 years. We don't play it at all any more, and our last campaign imploded at about 10th level. We gladly shelved it for something new, and I never bought anything for 3.5 but the PhB.

So, discarding the assumption that there really is some "secret" to D&D's indisputable long-term viability, I'd say:

1. Depends on the DM (agreeing with several others)
2. Ignorance of options
3. Dislike of change

I do think it's mildly humorous to see the developers jumping onto the Assumption Stump and slapping themselves on the back for creating the game with the mostest long-term viability ever due to granularity and leveling! That's a bit of a larf to me.

 

[DaveyJones]

He never compared current D&D to earlier editions. He was comparing "D&D" to other games.

Quasqueton

So WoW and Savage Worlds are okay comparisons, but you aren't allowed to take the 25 years of prior D&D into account for why it is better

I think that fits more of your "I like Star Trek" better.

 

[Templeton580]

It's humorous how so many folks answered/addressed this question.

Sort of like:
"What's the secret behind the 'TV reality game show' ability to keep viewers for so many seasons?"

The answers seem to be:
"I don't think they do keep viewers very long, because I don't watch them. Reality game shows are terribly annoying to me. My favorite show is Star Trek."

On the other hand, I think it displays good critical thinking skills to be able to take issue with the assumptions made by a loaded question.

 

[Quasqueton]

What's the secret behind D&D's ability to sustain long term play?

Note that he didn't say that other games didn't/couldn't sustain long-term play. Its not a zero-sum situation, where one game being "good" at something means that other games aren't/can't be good at it also.

He said what he thought the answer to the question was (levels and crunch), and then added that WoW had the same features, True 20 had them too (but "not as much"), but that he thought Savage Worlds didn't have them (and is why his group rejected it).

On the other hand, I think it displays good critical thinking skills to be able to take issue with the assumptions made by a loaded question.

I don't see how it is a loaded question. Are you saying that D&D does not sustain long-term play? That D&D does not have core feature that sustain long-term play?

Hey, I'm no fan of "reality game shows" on TV, but I'll admit to the evidence that they obviously have *something* that people like and that brings viewers back season after season.

Quasqueton

 

[Chiaroscuro23]

It's humorous how so many folks answered/addressed this question.

Sort of like:
"What's the secret behind the 'TV reality game show' ability to keep viewers for so many seasons?"

The answers seem to be:
"I don't think they do keep viewers very long, because I don't watch them. Reality game shows are terribly annoying to me. My favorite show is Star Trek."

It's funny you use this example, since generally reality shows don't get ratings as good as traditional scripted shows. They are, however, much cheaper to produce, so even with fewer viewers the network still makes more money. Ergo, they proliferate.

Oops ... I see you've said reality game show. I'm not sure quite what that is. I get game shows (like Jeopardy and Wheel of Fortune) and reality shows (Survivor, Fear Factor) but not sure where they cross.

Anyway, back to the thread!

 

[Quasqueton]

I see you've said reality game show. I'm not sure quite what that is. I get game shows (like Jeopardy and Wheel of Fortune) and reality shows (Survivor, Fear Factor) but not sure where they cross.

I thought Survivor and Fear Factor were "reality game shows". There is a winner at the end, as opposed to say, the Ozbornes and the Jessica & Nick show.

Quasqueton

 

[Templeton580]

I don't see how it is a loaded question. Are you saying that D&D does not sustain long-term play? That D&D does not have core feature that sustain long-term play?

Hey, I'm no fan of "reality game shows" on TV, but I'll admit to the evidence that they obviously have *something* that people like and that brings viewers back season after season.

It's a loaded question (to me), because it assumes a.) that D&D sustains long-term play better than other games, and b.) that there is a "secret" intrinsic to D&D which makes this long-term play possible. A better (read: not loaded) question would be, "Why do some games sustain long-term play while others do not?"

So, yes, D&D does sometimes sustain long-term play. If there is indeed a core feature, I don't think it's one that is unique to D&D.

I'm no fan of reality game shows either. But I'd counter that many of those shows go down the tubes after one season or less, and the "successful" reality show that brings people back again and again is actually a rare bird. But whatever element brings people back is not common to all reality shows, or even unique to reality shows as a category.

(That said...when you take issue with people who answer the original question with, "There's no secret cuz D&D sux" or something similar, I have to agree with you.)

 

[Quasqueton]

It's a loaded question (to me), because it assumes a.) that D&D sustains long-term play better than other games, and b.) that there is a "secret" intrinsic to D&D which makes this long-term play possible. A better (read: not loaded) question would be, "Why do some games sustain long-term play while others do not?"

Bold emphasis, mine. But see, here is the problem. Gundark did not say that D&D was better than other games, nor that the "secret" was only in D&D. Apparently some folks are reading that concept into what he said, but he didn't actually say that.

I think it's part leveling, part the complexity of the rules. I've had players really get into their character because of the crunch. It's a customizable thing. I've felt the same way with WoW, being able to plan out your character attaches you to him/her. True 20 holds that kind of hold, but not as much as d20. Savage worlds while a good system was rejected by my group. "Leveling" (yes I know there is no levels) was so anti-climatic. My group was also turned off by how simple the characters creation process was. They claimed that the characters where 2-D. I think that the classes have something to do with it as well. Classes gives a sense of their role for the group. This sense of purpose gives way to being attached to their character

It seems that the majority of complaints against d20 comes from the DMs not the players. d20 is a players game.

The closest he came to saying anything negative about any other game was his comment that SW didn't have the "secret" (levels and crunch and classes), so his group rejected it (and it alone).

Other games have levels, and crunch, and classes. He's only asking if these three features are keys to supporting long-term play.

Quasqueton

 

[swrushing]

Bold emphasis, mine. But see, here is the problem. Gundark did not say that D&D was better than other games, nor that the "secret" was only in D&D. Apparently some folks are reading that concept into what he said, but he didn't actually say that.

Q?

Did you read the linked thread's first post.

See gundark did not state the initial premise in his post at all, HE LINKED TO IT.

From that thread, post 1, statement of issue...

"Don't ask me what it is about the damn D&D system, but as annoying as it is, it is still unparalleled for its ability to sustain a long-term campaign with maximum player involvement. [Game X] seems to have an uphill battle with that. It's hard to get really attached to your very loose [Game X] numbers and abilities. "

Pay particular attention to the part starting about how DND is "unparalleled" yahddee yahddee

Sure, Gundark didn't say it, he merely linked to it.