What's the value of D&D currency?

[WizarDru]

Another thing you need to consider is that Joe Farmer isn't working for himself, and as often as not isn't working a full year's worth of work. Not only does he pay taxes, he's expected to work his liege lord's lands for a few months, and may have lots of other dues, besides. His upkeep is more than mere food and clothing, and he's usually barely scraping by. A good source for an idea of how Medieval economics work and how they relate to the D&D game would be "Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe". It's one of the best resources a DM can have for the actual economics of Medieval society, and how the heroes fit in it.

As hong alludes, the economics of D&D are somewhat preposterous, and not meant to realistically represent something even remotely close to the real world. When you stop to consider that a masterwork broadsword is worth more than what Joe Farmer expects to see in a couple of years, let alone a magical one, you see the problem. By the end of their professional careers, D&D characters have been trucking in more pure loot than most nations can muster to their defense. The core D&D setting assumes a lot of cash passing about.

Which is not to say you couldn't make it more realistic...just that you need to consider the far-reaching effects of such a choice, and the increased amount of work for all involved. One of the things that I always liked and disliked about GURPS is that all of the prices in all of the sourcebooks are listed in dollars ($), with the explanation that you'd translate the prices to your setting accordingly. It made understanding the economics of any particular setting simple, but lacked flavor.

 

[Treebore]

Staffan,

The DMG has a full write-up for the farmer as an NPC class. As far as the stats go, in th ePHB it talks about the average stats of a commoner class versus a PC class. A commoners being 10 ro 11 with an adventurers average being a 12 to 13.

As far as your numbers go, they are valid if you consider him to be high average(11) and adjust it +1 for being middle-aged (now 12). You could have also given a +1 to his stat for his 4 class levels (now a 13, but makes no difference in his bonus for his Wis). Most of this is what you originally said. So you were right, even though you did do it off the top of your head, not straight from the book. Which is the (pat on the back) point I was making. Hence the at the end of the last sentence.

 

[S'mon]

It says this in the Equipment chapter; untrained labor gets 1 sp a day, which perhaps coincidentaly is equal to what a poor meal in an inn costs, or what a full suit of poor clothing costs. I think things work out pretty well on that basis, meaning that the poor will simply never afford most of what's on the equipment list. Being peasents and all.

From this I use 1sp/day is the subsistence rate, the amount necessary to keep 1 adult alive and healthy enough to work. Young children will require a bit less. So a typical farming family needs income-equivalent (mostly crops) of around 5 sp/day to live, or 15 gp/month. Less than that level is destitution, where people begin to starve.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Hong, you don't have the dangly bits (I hope) to post the example of the seven and a half billion chickens again....

Don't worry, I think I remember what he's talking about.

In the 3E DMG, p137, there is the section "Generating Towns".

Under Community Wealth and Population, it states "To determine the amount of ready cash in a community, or the total value of any given item of equipment for sale at any given time, multiply half the gp limit by one-tenth of the community's population."

A Metropolis has a gp limit of 100,000gp - any item valued at 100k or less can conceivably be found for sale there. Its population is 25001+.

So if we have a Metropolis with 30,000 people, the total value of any given item of equipment at any given time is half of 50k times a tenth of 30k, or a hundred and fifty million gold pieces.

This Metropolis has 150Mgp worth of oil flasks for sale, and 150Mgp worth of longswords, and 150Mgp worth of saddlebags, and 150Mgp worth of spyglasses, and of prybars, and of ink... and 150Mgp worth of chickens.

Chickens cost two copper pieces each, so a hundred and fifty million gold pieces worth of chickens is seven and a half billion.

By the rules, a city with thirty thousand people has seven and a half billion chickens for sale at any given time.

The system works quite nicely for villages. It kinda breaks down just a little bit once you get bigger than that

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I was going to challenge this, but on looking at the stats for a housecat I have to agree - at least with low level characters.

[color=#dddddd] -------
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The housecat hits! The housecat misses. The housecat bites!

You die...

-- MORE --[/color]

-Hyp.

 

[Altalazar]

Don't worry, I think I remember what he's talking about.

In the 3E DMG, p137, there is the section "Generating Towns".

Under Community Wealth and Population, it states "To determine the amount of ready cash in a community, or the total value of any given item of equipment for sale at any given time, multiply half the gp limit by one-tenth of the community's population."

A Metropolis has a gp limit of 100,000gp - any item valued at 100k or less can conceivably be found for sale there. Its population is 25001+.

So if we have a Metropolis with 30,000 people, the total value of any given item of equipment at any given time is half of 50k times a tenth of 30k, or a hundred and fifty million gold pieces.

This Metropolis has 150Mgp worth of oil flasks for sale, and 150Mgp worth of longswords, and 150Mgp worth of saddlebags, and 150Mgp worth of spyglasses, and of prybars, and of ink... and 150Mgp worth of chickens.

Chickens cost two copper pieces each, so a hundred and fifty million gold pieces worth of chickens is seven and a half billion.

By the rules, a city with thirty thousand people has seven and a half billion chickens for sale at any given time.

The system works quite nicely for villages. It kinda breaks down just a little bit once you get bigger than that

-Hyp.

The real question is, just how many chickens are there REALLY? It might, in reality, be a stunningly large number.

 

[jgbrowning]

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The housecat hits! The housecat misses. The housecat bites!

You die...

-- MORE --[/color]

-Hyp.

You SIR, should be punished! No more funnies from you. NO MORE!

Dear Lord, I spent too much time playing ascii games.....

joe b.

 

[Dogbrain]

Not a system, but something to build a system with:

First, we must accept the necessary silly assumption that the conventional fantasy roleplaying setting would have any similiarity to our own medieval period of history. Refusing to accept that means that there is no need to bother with an actual self-consistent model based on anything that resembles any part of our own world or history. Once that is out of the way, then there's no problem.

Okay, now that we've swallowed the elephant, the rest should be easy.

A few things to consider: The majority of people in pre-industrial societies do not live on a "cash" basis. They get "paid" in ways that would probably be illegal in the modern USA (mostly due to difficulty of levying taxes under our money-based system). The majority of people in our (assumed) medieval society are peasants. That means that they don't get "paid" at all. Instead, they are sharecroppers in a semi-communal system. They owe their masters some portion of their crops, the wool from animals, and their labor. In return, their masters "protect" them (think "protection racket"). Law, custom, and religion all work in concert to maintain this system. Thus, not only would it be illegal to demand a "modern" system of payment, it would be immoral and foreign to do so. It's like trying to tell a college sophomore Marxist that communism just won't work in the real world--you run up against a brick wall. Anything that a household does not directly create (clothing, vegetables from the garden, the annual pig slaughter) is acquired by barter. An example: Grow grain. The master gets his cut. Bring grain to the mill. The miller gets a share of the flour he grinds from the grain. You get the rest of the flour. The flour gets stored, turned into bread, gruel, etc. You give some of the flour to the blacksmith for a knife, to the potter for cooking pots, etc. There is no fixed "value" for any of this, but nearly all adults have a rough idea of what is "fair". The wandering peddlar comes by and you trade some shirts your wife has made from cloth she's weaved for things your village doesn't have. That is the life for the vast majority of people. But most people know everybody else around, so a promise broken or a cheat on a trade will haunt one for years.

The cities have less than 10% of the population. Money is more important here. Here are lawyers, doctors, and others who insist upon cash payment--when they can get it. Likewise, the markets very often trade in currency, since, unlike the villages, people do not know each other.

Okay, so, what is the scope of this minority "money economy"? My sources say that, in the 1300s (the earliest period I have information for), a "laborer" could expect no more than two pounds in wages per year (a pound is 240 pence). However, at the same time, an infantryman (not mercenary, but "on staff") was "paid" up to 3 pounds per year (at least 2/3 to 3/4 of that would be "witheld" for clothing, housing, food, etc.), an archer 4.5 pounds, and heavy infantry up to 9 pounds per year. A master carpenter or master mason could expect to see between 4-9 pounds per year, but that would then have to be used to support his business, his household, and his apprentices. A chantry priest would make as much as a master carpenter or mason. Kitchen servants might see up to 1/5 a pound in cash a year--maybe. Servants were presumed to have all their needs taken care of.

At the other end of the spectrum, English Crown revenues for the same era were about 30,000 pounds per year--but they had to support all royal castles, armies, etc. off of that. A baron could see up to 500 pounds per year--which then goes out the door to support their demesne.

But what would that buy?

A knight's armor (not defined further) was commissioned and purchased new for 16.5 pounds during that period. "Best wool" cloth was one pound a yard--in a city. About 100 serf's tunics could be had for a pound but a well-off yeoman (peasant) might pay twelve times that for what he would consider appropriate to his station (were he to pay cash for the item). A London house (with a courtyard) could be bought for 100 pounds or more. A similar house in York would go for 1/10 that price. Purchased in an inn, ale would be at least 1 penny per gallon, but that would be with the markup one associates with an inn rather than the much cheaper method of making ones own, and even Londoners made their own quite often, up to the 16th century. As for weapons, the only figure I have is for a "cheap sword", which would have been 120 per pound.

Do what you'd like with that information.