What's up with PCGen???

[Zub]

Other than WotC's closed content books and AU by Malhavoc, what other sources are you referring to? Granted, WotC's books are a large selection, so that may be all you're referring to.

It's the perception I had. I thought CMP announced deals with Bastion as well.

 

[BarakO]

It's the perception I had. I thought CMP announced deals with Bastion as well.

They did.

And those sets will also be done for distribution with regular PCGen when a volunteer gets to them/has enough interest to create them as PCGen has permission to include them.

This appears to me to be the biggest problem CMP is having... people see that Bastion (or any other publisher) will have sets through CMP and *assume* that they won't be in the free distribution. That's just not so in all cases (I fervently hope it will turn out to be true in very few cases).

Many of the companies realize what a great marketing vehicle PCGen is and want their material in it for that reason alone.

AEG's Spycraft is a prime example. Due to licensing restrictions, it can't go out with the PCGen distribution, but as soon as it's completed it will be up and available for free at either the AEG or CMP website (last I heard AEG wanted CMP to host it, we'll see what happens), per their wish.

They stand to make more money (IMO) off of the demand for their physial books from people who see their stuff in PCGen for free and want the books than they'd make from charging for their data sets.

 

[LetohNereg]

great, you get a document that says the same thing that has been said over and over - that pcgen has no special relationship with CMP. The document is unenforcable as pcgen is not a legal entity, and that is the status quo already.

I think that it would be handy for the PCGen community to have a list of all Third Parties that we has a working relationship with.

From my point of veiw it would state:

Company Name:
Relationship Type:
Permissions given to PCGen Community:
Permissions given from the PCGen community:
Progress:

It could not be a legal agreement between the parties as the PCGen community is not an entity, just a statement of what the current agreements are.

e.g.
Company Name: CMP
Relationship Type: Produce PCGen Datasets
Permissions given to PCGen Community:
- None.
Permissions given from the PCGen community:
- As per all other PCGen Users.
- They may log trackers using same procedure as any other user.
- No special treatment is given to the trackers raised.
Progress:
- 3.0 WOTC Closed data sets available for fee on their web site.

Company Name: AEG
Relationship Type: Publish OGL Materials
Permissions given to PCGen Community:
- May produce data sets for OGL material
- May produce data sets for special license materials but not host them. WoTC set available host locations.
Permissions given from the PCGen community:
- May advertise that PCGen data sets are availilble for their product.
Progress:
- Spycraft files being constructed.
- WoTC has set that data sets must be hosted at AEG web site or CMP web site. No other location is acceptable to WoTC due to the special licence.
- AEG is very resistant to having the files on their site as they cannot support them.
- Only current option is to host at CMP.

etc.

It would then be easy for PCGen users to see what permissions and arrangements were present, what data sets we have permission for but have not started (i.e. they can start them themselves!), and where the files are located.

This information would be updated regularly (at least once per release).

 

[antpasq]

Wow!!!
I just wanted to know what was going on. This subject is starting to look like the PCGen boards. I won't claim to be any smarter than the next person, but I am already lost after reading all the posts today. For the lay person, like myself, there is no difference between PCGen and CMP. Now some of you are going to say there is and that it's my problem for not seeing the difference. But way back when PCGen was on version 2, before WoTC threatened the existence of PCGen, there was no viable difference between PCGen and CMP. Most of use thought CMP put out PCGen. It then seemed to use that CMP entered into a coercive relationship with WoTC, whereby WoTC said that CMP could continue to make PCGen as long as CMP fixed E-Tools and started charging people for the datasets for PCGen. A lot of use felt betrayed that CMP entered into this relationship. It made no sense for CMP to fix a competitive program, especially one that sucked in comparision to PCGen. I won't even get into the debate about charging us for datasets. I have already paid for the books, why should I have to pay to use them again? Most of the players in my group own most of the books and are not allowed to use info from books that they do not own. So none of us would be using PCGen to access information that we already did not own. Now, would I have paid for a program that allowed me to use the d20 books in a different way? Yes. But we were never asked to pay for PCGen. But we are now being asked to pay for books that we already own. The debate now seems to be about greed and there does seem to be a conflict of interest. PCGen seeks to get publishers to make their material free for inclusion with PCGen whilst CMP seeks publishers who want to charge for their data. It is impossible for these two entities to operate under the same roof, with the same people, for the same end-user program. Once people start to see the profit to be made from their endeavors, it is almost impossible for them to then offer their services for free. And free is what PCgen was about from the beginning. I just downloaded the latest PCGen beta, v5.51. There is nothing to use without paying for the datasets. It seems that you cannot even create a character without buying the WoTC dataset. So, while PCGen is free, you can't use it until you buy a dataset. So much for free.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

One thing that might help is publishing the minutes. The last that I heard the decision was to do nothing of the sort, but to produce an edited version of said minutes.

Let us be honest - most people won't bother to read those minutes. (This would most often include me, unless an explosion of some sort occurs on the boards.)
Some who do read them will come to wrong conclusions.
And a few who read them just won't care - they will be looking to see what might be coming down the pipe. (This might also include me.)

But not making the minutes available helps spread distrust. The phrase 'It was decided' for example can hide both 'by whom' and 'why'. Most importantly it will show folks that a BoD meeting is a boring, necessary thing that they can be glad that they don't have to attend.

I personally don't distrust the BoD. I don't even think that there is that big a conflict of interest. (But yes, I do think there is a little, or at least it's perception.) But I do think that they may need to step back, take a deep breath, and admit that there are a lot of people who, rightly or wrongly, think that there is a conflict of interest.

Mynex in particular can be very argumentative when he believes he is under attack. He is also the motive force behing there being a PCGen, and in a lot of ways he may feel that it's 'his baby.' And in this he's right. Asking him to step out of the BoD is way to extreme, it is his baby.

A lot of people are getting very hot over this subject, and some are getting very personal in their attacks (You know who you are) , this needs to be debated, not argued - yelling, flaming, and trolling just make people get even less likely to discuss things rationally.

You might want to get some arbitration by an uninvolved party - both sides are getting too steamed to see clearly, but it does need to be dealt with before the entire project goes *flooey!*

The Auld Grump

 

[kingpaul]

I just downloaded the latest PCGen beta, v5.51. There is nothing to use without paying for the datasets. It seems that you cannot even create a character without buying the WoTC dataset. So, while PCGen is free, you can't use it until you buy a dataset. So much for free.

You don't need to buy datasets to utilize PCGen. Part 2 of the d/l includes (and I just did a fresh d/l myself):

Alderac Entertainment Group - Dragons
Alderac Entertainment Group - Dungeons
Alderac Entertainment Group - Evi
Alderac Entertainment Group - Undead
Alderac Entertainment Group - War
Atlas - Backdrops
Atlas - Beyond the Veil
Atlas - Thieves in the Forest
Atlas - Touched by the Gods
Auran d20 - Dark Awakenings - Guardian
Auran d20 - Notes from the Apothecary
Avalanche Press - Black Flags
Avalanche Press - Jade and Steel
Bastion Press - Alchemy and Herbalists
Battlefield Press - Cityscape
Citizen Games - Sidewinder
Creative Mountain Games - Culture Class - County Clergy
Creative Mountain Games - Culture Class - Trundle Folk
Creative Mountain Games - Group Combat
Creative Mountain Games - Open Spells Collection
FanCC - Netbook of Spells and Magic
Fantasy Flight Games - Spells and Spellcraft
Fantasy Flight Games - Starfarer's Handbook
Fantasy Flight Games - Traps and Treachery
Fantasy Flight Games - Mythic Races
Green Ronin - Arcana - Societies of Magic
Green Ronin - Arcana - Societies of Magic Web Enhancement
Green Ronin - Jade Dragons and Hungry Ghosts
Malhavoc Press - Book of Eldritch Might
Malhavoc Press - Book of Eldritch Might II
Malhavoc Press - Demon Gods Fane
Malhavoc Press - If Thoughts Could Kill
Malhavoc Press - Web Enhancements
Mongoose - Encyclopaedia Arcane - Chaos Magic
Mongoose - Encyclopaedia Arcane - Demonology
Mongoose - Encyclopaedia Arcane - Necromancy
Mongoose - Gladiators - Sands of Death
Mongoose - Power Classes - Assassin
Mongoose - Slayers Guide - Amazons
Mongoose - Slayers Guide - Centaurs
Mongoose - Slayers Guide - Gnolls
Mongoose - Slayers Guide - Hobgoblins
Mongoose - Slayers Guide - Troglodytes
Mongoose - Quint Fighter
Mongoose - Quint Rogue
Mongoose - Traveller's Tales - Seas of Blood
Pinnacle Entertainment - Deadlands - Deadlands d20
Pinnacle Entertainment - Deadlands - Deadlands d20 web enhancements
Pinnacle Entertainment - Deadlands - Horrors of the Weird West
Pinnacle Entertainment - Deadlands - The Way of the Gun
Pinnacle Entertainment - Deadlands - The Way of the Huckster
RPG Objects - Darwins World - Artifacts of the Ancients
RPG Objects - Darwins World - Denizens of the Twisted Earth
RPG Objects - Darwins World - World Rules
Sword and Sorcery Studios - Relics and Rituals

And we have these as well:
MSRD
SRD


Now, having said that, why do you say that you have to pay for datasets?

 

[kingpaul]

One thing that might help is publishing the minutes. The last that I heard the decision was to do nothing of the sort, but to produce an edited version of said minutes.

We make the log of the BoD meeting public now. They can be found here. As you can see, we have 10/19, 10/26, 11/2, 11/9 and 11/16 up.

I personally don't distrust the BoD. I don't even think that there is that big a conflict of interest. (But yes, I do think there is a little, or at least it's perception.) But I do think that they may need to step back, take a deep breath, and admit that there are a lot of people who, rightly or wrongly, think that there is a conflict of interest.

Glad to hear you don't distrust the BoD. As for the perceived conflict of interest, yes, I agree, people do have that perception. This is why I'm trying to find out the specifics of the perception (not just, "there's a conflict", but why one is perceived) so that they can be dealt with.

You might want to get some arbitration by an uninvolved party - both sides are getting too steamed to see clearly, but it does need to be dealt with before the entire project goes *flooey!

Arbitration? That's not been mentioned before. *goes off to think*

 

[Nylanfs]

Wow!!!
I have already paid for the books, why should I have to pay to use them again?

So if you own the book "Interview with a Vampire" by Ann Rice, you are entitled to seeing the movie for free since you own the book right? Or you should get a free copy of the book on tape so you can listen to it in your car?

You are paying for the item in ONE type of format, that doesn't apply to other types of format, audio, movie etc...

And basically what you are paying for when you buy CMP's datasets is time. You can code up all the books yourself. The documentation is sufficient and you can ask questions on the LSTHelp group when you get stuck, but it will take a long time learning by trial and error. CMP is offering these files to save you the hassle of doing that. And before you say "Well that's too expensive!" I bought all the splatbooks in the bundle for under $15US. To me saving me DAYS of free time is worth 15 dollars.

 

[smetzger]

CMP has no special rights. None. If you don't like that answer, sorry, cause it's the only one there is. What, do you want the BoD to vote to give CMP extra rights so that you can have some to point to?

Actually CMP does have a special right.

CMP has the right to claim compatability with PCGen.

I am not saying that others don't have permission to claim compatability with PCGen. But because the guy who owns the PCGen name is on the board for CMP, CMP will always have the irrevocable right to claim compatability with PCGen. I am sure there are lots of other for pay software companies that would like an irrevocable right to claim compatability with PCGen.

 

[antpasq]

Originally Posted by kingpaul
You don't need to buy datasets to utilize PCGen. Part 2 of the d/l includes (and I just did a fresh d/l myself):

You are correct, I seem to be having a source error. I have all the sources loaded but PCGen is telling that in order to load a new character I need to have the sources loaded.

Originally posted by Nylanfs
So if you own the book "Interview with a Vampire" by Ann Rice, you are entitled to seeing the movie for free since you own the book right? Or you should get a free copy of the book on tape so you can listen to it in your car?

That arguement doen't hold water. Going to the movies was never free and then started charging people to go. Though I do understand the basis of your point. The unique situation here is that PCGen started for free. A group of good souls volunteered their time to create an awesome program for their friends and fellow gaming community. Would it be ok now for me to create lst files and share them with my friends? I think the answer would be yes. So at what point is someone violating WoTC intellectual rights? After sharing free files with 10 people, a 1000 people, a million people? As long as no one is making money on the program use of these books, no one is losing money. PCGen and other code monkeys were and still are volunteering their time and sharing with a broader community. No one was getting hurt when this was all free. The people getting hurt now are those that spend their money on the books and have no programming experience and have no disposable income left to purchase datasets.