What's Up With The Monk?

[Gizzard]

My monk PC stayed back & peppered him with crossbow bolts...Monks need to use different tactics and have different strengths.

Well, this might just come back to what the late, lamented Hong said about Monks - "Whatever it is that they do it, it doesnt seem to be what most people want them to do."

I didnt take any bow feats because I didnt think of a Monk as a crossbow archer. (If it had been a short bow, I might have felt a little more positive about it. Maybe thats just me.)

And, sure, plinking away with the crossbow is going to be a more effective tactic than getting your face punched in by a Giant, but basically your contribution to the fight is a d8+0 of damage every two rounds (assuming you dont ever miss!) Your party is going to have to be very understanding in order to consider this "contributing". Tactics like this are why other party members start looking at the Monk and asking "Why are you even here? "

You would presumably admit that monks are good at not dying, due to great saves, movement, immunities, evasion abilities, etc?

But they are good at dying because of low HPs. ;-) This is the crux of the arguement that Monks cant stand toe-to-toe with big monsters. Which is to say "When the fight gets tough, the Monk...runs away and pulls out a crossbow?"

I've gone negative my fair share of times; basically if you are scouting, you are vulnerable to being surprised by a power oriented monster. A power monster usually only needs two rounds to kill a Monk so - bang - "DM: You are surprised, no DEX, he hits you twice. Take 28. Roll Init. He wins, he goes first, you are still flatfooted. One hit, take 19. Your turn, what do you do? Oh, you are dead already? Oh. OK. Well then....um."

And this isnt even considering the case where you tactically have to stand and fight. If there are three Trolls and only two real Fighters, the party expects the Monk to step up and occupy the third Troll.

Again, it comes back to expectations - the Monk might not be particularly suited for a toe-to-toe fighting role, but since he isnt particularly suited for anything else, the rest of the party will expect him to contribute in whatever way he can best. And in this case, thats stepping up and sucking up two rounds of punishment from a creature that he has absolutely no chance against.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

The one thing I have noticed monks are very good up at the is thrashing soft targets. High mobility, a large number of weak iterative attacks, and OA feats like Improved Grapple make the monk exceptionally efficient at it; the fodder can't run away and they can only gang up on the monk if he lets them -- usually to their regret.

Sadly, beating up mooks is rarely an urgent priority with respect to party survival, while standing toe-to-toe with the Hill Giant often is. And every PC is capable of picking on mooks, even if the monk happens to be a lot better at it.

I am not going to get too enthusiastic about a class that is particularly good at something about as demanding as taking out the trash.

 

[Christian]

True, there are times that the monk really shines. But mages fly. Support is good. That is why there are hirelings. I can not see the "monk friendly" situations comming up often, which puts you at support. Is that fun?

Sometimes. And IME, the "monk friendly" situations have come up fairly regularly. I don't think it was the DM throwing me bones, either-he mostly uses published adventures (with some tweaking, usually, but not that much).

I've gone negative my fair share of times; basically if you are scouting, you are vulnerable to being surprised by a power oriented monster. A power monster usually only needs two rounds to kill a Monk so - bang - "DM: You are surprised, no DEX, he hits you twice. Take 28. Roll Init. He wins, he goes first, you are still flatfooted.

Indeed. My monk had Alertness and maxed out his Listen skill, but this was still a real problem. Sometimes I thought Improved Initiative might have been a better choice. Both would have been best of all for this, naturally, but you don't exactly have spare feats ...

I found it very effective to scout under Invisibility. It's a lot easier to move silently than to effectively hide while moving. But again, you need a magic item, supply of potions, or an arcane caster for an ally.

Oddly, when the character finally died, it wasn't from this-it was from an opposing spellcaster rolling a 20 on his melee touch attack to score on his Death domain power. And then rolling something absurd on his d6's. All the Expertise in the world can't save you from that ... although even then, more hit points would have helped. (Never let the cleric talk you out of keeping you maxed out when you're playing a monk ...)

 

[Christian]

The one thing I have noticed monks are very good up at the is thrashing soft targets. High mobility, a large number of weak iterative attacks, and OA feats like Improved Grapple make the monk exceptionally efficient at it; the fodder can't run away and they can only gang up on the monk if he lets them -- usually to their regret.

Sadly, beating up mooks is rarely an urgent priority with respect to party survival, while standing toe-to-toe with the Hill Giant often is. And every PC is capable of picking on mooks, even if the monk happens to be a lot better at it.

No, not mooks. (The barbarian with the Cleave feat has always been better at that.)

Wizards & sorcerers. When you're a wizard, if you see a fighter/barbarian type charging you, hit him with a Will save spell. If it's a cleric, try one with a Reflex save. When it's a monk, hope you have a Fly prepared so you can escape. And hope you get it off before she gets there, because you may not get a second chance.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Is it just me, or could you give the exact same (cheaty) collection of magic items to a barbarian and have him do far, far more damage? Sure, the Hide skill checks will be a few points lower, but the damage will be 2d6+10 (assume a Potion of Bull's Strength gives him +4 to strength, and he starts at 18, with a +1 Greatsword).

d8+7 vs 2d6+10. Attack bonus of the barbarian will be better, too. And he'll have an AC that's at least as good.

And he doesn't need to drink a 1350gp potion to do the job.

Yeah, that's one rockin' monk you have there.

Incidentally, how did you buy all that crap?
You have 19k to spend.

Amulet Wisdom: 4k
Gloves Strength: 4k
Boots Striding: 6.5k
Potion Fang +3: 1,350gp
Cloak, Boots: 4k

You're over.


(My proposed buy for 7th level barb, ability raise into Str)
Str 18, Con 14, Dex 14, Int 10, Wis 11, Chr 8)

+1 Greatsword for 2k
Potion of Bull's Strength for 300gp
Cloak Elvenkind: 2k
Boots: 6.5k

Save 7k for a rainy day. (Something to help with saves?)

Assuming I get a +4 on the potion, my attack bonus and damage is going to kick the monk's sorry ass. My AC is as good, my hp are far better. The only place I'm losing is having only half the ranks in Tumble and Hide . . . but those are hardly going to be as crucial.

Nope it wouldn't be better to have a barbarian. Hide and sneak are core skills for a single pc class to be able to effective do anything to the party. As for the costs of items oops I went of a smidge. Fine make it a potion of bulls str, and a potion of whatever that lame wisdom spell is. As for boots of cheat, yeah good for you, you don't like a core item. If you hadn't noticed there was a centaur in the PC group, with that kind of mobility boots of cheat are just evening the odds.

Situation 1 my monk attacks the party. Ok Mr. Wizard you take 12 points of damage you see a fleeting shape turn the corner. Roll initiative, by the time you turn the corner your selves you don't see anyone.
Or heck if you just want to do good damage, ok mr wiz you take 12 points of damage make a fort save, you failed ah geez, ok lets see roll initiative but your stunned so you can't do anything. BOP/ZANG/ZOW this guys is grappling you and crushing you bones. You take another 36 points of damage oh your dead. The monk quietly drags off your body not letting it fall, and sneaks off. Silence +stun+decent grappling can mean an unaware party when someone is getting pounded. This can work especially well if the monk can set up any kind of distraction.

Situation 2 your barb, oh mr ranger-or rogue you see and hear a barb coming for you guys roll initiative.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

I am with forrester here. I think you are pushing it.

First, items. The "gloves +2 str" should be "gauntlets of ogre power", but it is just a name. Next, you assume you can combine magic effects on items. This is the same as the magic brass knuckles idea. If it isn't published, then it is not available. That asside, the second power is double price (Tome and Blood, pg 79, **note). Also, potion of magic fang isn't really published, but I don't want to nitpick too much. After all, this monk is obviously friends with the elves.


His move is 100 or 50. I have no idea where 80 came from. With the boots, it is 100.

Your tatics section is also lacking. In a catacomb, is there always a place to hide? With the dead bodies? His hide results are 23+, not 30+. His average is over 30, but that doesn't mean too much. How would this character use pit traps? Jump over them, then taunt the opposition? How is he going to deal with ranged characters? What kind of terrain would he use? How?

Overall, you tried to make a combat monster that should be a rogue by his tatics. Why make him a monk?

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On the grapple question, you can not spring attack in a surprize round because you don't have a full action, you have a partial action. Also, I am fairly certain you can not move while grappling.
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A general comment, Mr. O'Glase. Please use puctuation. If you are asking a question, end the question with "?". Please place periods at the ends of each of your thoughts. I had a hard time understanding your questions.

None of this response is intended to be mean, only to constructively point out flaws.

The rules for combo items are in the dmg, so it's about as core as you could get. The rules for potions are in the PH, they are like wands and scrolls, you don't need a specific one in the DMG.

Move 80 or 100 I didn't have my book in front of me so I coudn't remember the monks base speed at that level.

Tactics lacking, yeah with all the detailed maps we got I sjould of come up with somehting better than the monk decides the ambush sites cause he knows the terrain.

Spring attack can be done in surprise round it's called a partial charge. I haven't seen any rule precluding movement and grappling.

spelling/grammar: stuff it, this is a casual hobby board. I'm not about to get anal here, that's what you do at school and work.

 

[Roland Delacroix]

spelling/grammar: stuff it, this is a casual hobby board. I'm not about to get anal here, that's what you do at school and work.

hrd two mak a pnt whn pepple cont understan yu noo nede to bee a jeyk

 

[LokiDR]

hrd two mak a pnt whn pepple cont understan yu noo nede to bee a jeyk

LOL. well said (and spelled )

 

[LokiDR]

Sometimes. And IME, the "monk friendly" situations have come up fairly regularly. I don't think it was the DM throwing me bones, either-he mostly uses published adventures (with some tweaking, usually, but not that much).

Ok, this look promising. If you see these situations come up regularly, how so? What is the campaign setting? Any specific encounters/specific modules? I don't them comming up, but I am not in the pro-monk camp. I still wonder if there is something I am missing.

By the by, it is a most interesting death for a monk: to magic. But that gets everyone. Was it memorable character?

 

[LokiDR]

First, I would like to say that you may be taking this a little to personally Shard. I am not calling you stupid, I am trying to point out inconsistancies. I want monks to be cool, I just don't see it working out. I personally have to see it work out by only using items as they appear. If you apply rules meant for expanding the material (combining items), you are making the campaign more friendly to monks. That is fine. How do they fair without any expanding of what is published? Maybe the fault is in the published material, but that is what we are working in.

The rules for combo items are in the dmg, so it's about as core as you could get. The rules for potions are in the PH, they are like wands and scrolls, you don't need a specific one in the DMG.

I consider the items in the DMG to be the "commonly availible" items. Others might be more rare (cost more). The comment was just a nitpick. All the rest of my comments assume you have them.

Also, I found the rules for combining items in Tome and Blood. What page is it in the DMG? Did I just glance by it?

Move 80 or 100 I didn't have my book in front of me so I coudn't remember the monks base speed at that level.

A technical nitpick. Because the monk class is explained in the online SRD, I assumed you would use this source. It just wasn't helping your case.

Tactics lacking, yeah with all the detailed maps we got I sjould of come up with somehting better than the monk decides the ambush sites cause he knows the terrain.

Your tatics assumed I already knew how to play a killer monk. I don't know monk that well. You don't make be believe that monk is cooler by saying "its simple." I didn't need tatcial maps, but a few round by round examples would have been nice. I think wolff96 did a good explanation.

Spring attack can be done in surprise round it's called a partial charge. I haven't seen any rule precluding movement and grappling.

My bad. I spaced on the partial charge. (hey, we all have our days) But even a partial charge puts your monk right next to the party as a whole. Do you expect the wizard to be alone? And contrary to a later post, I don't see you dragging off the wizard quitly, but who knows?

spelling/grammar: stuff it, this is a casual hobby board. I'm not about to get anal here, that's what you do at school and work.

If I am going to debate an issue, I have to be able to understand the oppsition. I don't care about text book grammar or spelling. All I ask to be able to understand your thoughts with a minimum of effort. Casual means ignore it if it too much work. Again, it was just not helping you out (you seem to have changed at least a bit since then, which might say something)

Overall, you obviously put lots of effort into the monk, and he does seem cool. I just can't reason putting this bit-too-minmaxed character against my party. I hope you understand. It would not be a fair test of monks in general.