What's Up With The Monk?

A few game sessions ago I put the party up against a 6th Monk and 6th Sorcerer and a bunch of cannon fodder (the party was taking control of the ship the Storm Rider in the city of Scant). The party tore thru the connon fodder as expected and they went after the Sorcerer (thinking that was their biggest threat). The Monk with a +2 Kama faced off against the party's toughest characters. They didn't land a hand on him. He managed to move around too fast and then got away before the party could gang up on him because they realized that he was the bigger threat. He kept leaping from the ship to the dock and tumbled past the party. This then allowed the Sorcerer to get away and now I have recurring villians. They still haven't forgot about that Monk running circles around them which I'm about to use against them again, to their surprise! Muhaha... :)

I agree the if monks are to be used in a campaign then the DM must give them the magical items to be effective, just like every other class. If the fighter and rogue types have magical weapons and the spell casters have magical equipment then it only makes sense that the monk should have some too. Just my MO.
 
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CRG said:
(1) A shield is not armor, if you want to get picky.

Actually, in D&D, it is... it's defined as a type of armor, provides an armor bonus to AC, and is on the armor chart.

Oh, and by the way... how did you come up with your username? (I'm curious because of our similarity.)
 

The main problem with the Monk is that it's difficult to put the class's weird abilities and immunities to effective use.

Here are some rather high level characters that our group is using that make some of the Monk's problems manifest. The characters are 15th level with 35 point buy for stats and standard equipment (200k).

Ran: Halfling Ranger 1, Rogue 14. Atts: +21/+21/+16/+16/+11. Damage: 1d4+3 + (1d6+1 electric) and 7d6 sneak attack. AC 29. HP 79. F: +13 R: +21 W: +11 Ring of Blinking

Orion: Human Monk 15. Atts: (flurry) +15/+15/+12/+9/+6 Dmg: 1d12+5. AC 29. HP 108. F: +16 R: +16 W: +18 Cloak of Major Displacement, Mighty Fist item +2

Practically, both ACs are 33, because both characters can haste themselves.

Without sneak attacking, Ran only does about one point less per hit than Orion. A rogue that is denied sneak attack damage isn't exactly the person you want around in a fight. And here we have a Monk whose damage is almost that bad (a Bull's STR on the halfling makes up the difference) and will hit less often.

Sure, a Stunning Attack is an excellent tool for the whole team, because both the rogue and monk have Expert Tactician. However, since the stunning attack has to be called in advance on one of the monk's attacks, and since each attack has a rather low chance to hit, the Stunning Blow attack will probably fail, even without taking the Fort save into consideration.


Want to be less stat dependant? Put all you got in Wis and Dex then take Weapon Finesse (unarmed). With 18 Wis and Dex, a 1st level monk has an AC of 19, far better than a 1st level fighter in scale+shield. He will be adding +4 to his attacks (+2/+2 with flurry). A 1st level human monk could even add Weapon Focus (unarmed). Or maybe Improved Initiative (which goes up to +8), attacking and stunning flat-footed foes. Or he could pick up Dodge and Mobility, which paves the way for a Spring Attack at 3rd level. With a rogue in the group, there's even more reason to pick up Dodge and Mobility. Not only your AC against one foe goes to 20 (24 vs. AoO for moving), you flank him easily, and the 1st level rogue then gets his sneak in with every attack.

The point on monk weapons is well-made. If your game has monks, it's only logical that you make magical monk weapons available. A monk that doesn't comission a +1 kama at 3rd level or so just isn't being very wise...


Somehow, I don't see a character that requires TWO 18s as stat independent. And, as others have pointed out, Monks don't qualify for either Focus or Finess at level 1, and can't take Spring Attack until level 6 at best since it requires +4 base attack. That simple +1 kama will probably require all the Monk's money at level 3 as well. He'd be better off commisioning a Pearl of Power for the wizard who casts Mage Armor.

Summon Monster 1 also provides flanking, and can appear next to someone, bypassing movement altogether.


I much prefer Psychic Warriors to Monks. First of all, Psi Wars have much greater flexibility because they get bonus feats and can select their own powers. Also, they can use weapons fairly effectively like most martial artist archetypes. They can also use powers like Deep Impact or Unavoidable Strike to actually hit things. Sure, they don't have poison immunity, SR, or great saves. However, most of the time, people interested in playing Monks aren't interested in killing the awesome wizard killer but crappy combatant.
 

Re: Re: What's Up With The Monk?

TiQuinn said:




When they come up against the stone golem, why isn't the mage or the cleric casting magic weapon, magic fang, or greater magic weapon on the monk? Why aren't they giving everyone enhancement spells like Bull's Strength and Endurance before battles? It doesn't sound like they're exactly helping matters much.

The monk is as viable a character as any other, but if he's not going to be given the same opportunities as other characters...(wow, that's the 20th magic hoard we've found and still no magical kama???)...or if the party isn't going to back him up, well then ANY character in that situation is going to do badly.

You need a Druid to cast the Magic Fang spells. I usually don't see people playing Druids, how about you? Therefore, it's not unreasonable to think that the wizard or cleric might be making magic weapons, but not a nifty +2 or +3 mighty fist amulet for the monk.
 

Re: Re: Re: What's Up With The Monk?

Hammerhead said:


You need a Druid to cast the Magic Fang spells. I usually don't see people playing Druids, how about you? Therefore, it's not unreasonable to think that the wizard or cleric might be making magic weapons, but not a nifty +2 or +3 mighty fist amulet for the monk.

Oops, I'm wrong about magic fang. Point stands for casting magic weapon or gtr. magic weapon, however. If the monk can't hit monsters with damage reduction, then the party can boost his abilities with bull's str or enlarge, or better yet, cast one of the two magic weapon spells.
 
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I run games where stealth and mobility can be important. In this sort of environment, the monk is very strong.

These are two great abilities of a Monk. But, unless your Monk is of a race with Darkvision then stealth is useless underground because of light issues. Our group has run through the standard module series (Sunless Citadel, Forge of Fury) and though I put points into Hide and Move Silent I really havent had much chance to be the party scout.

Mobility is nice; though RP considerations constrain you here. I took the Bushido code from OA as a guide for what my character believes - and that means that you lose honor if you flee from a fight. At least I can tumble around and attack from the most advantageous spot; but, as anyone will tell you, a Monk is not intended to go toe-to-toe with big angry creatures like Trolls. Regen 5 will teach you quickly how little damage a Monk actually does turn by turn. :-(

A previous poster wrote that his 5th level monk had a base attack of +2/+2. On the other hand, a monk I played up to level 6 (with 1st level in rogue) had a base attack of +9 or +7/+7.

Hmmm, at 5th level I am +5 or +3/+3 on a Flurry. Thats with a BAB of 3 and a STR bonus of +2.

Can you break down your +9? Even if you are Rogue1/Monk 6 your BAB is still 4 so you'd need 5 points of plusses to get +9.

Not that it matters a lot; our half-orc Barbarian is +11 with his non-magic Great Axe at 5th level. Thats +5 BAB, +5 STR, +1 Focus. No buffs, no magic. A Monk is not going to get close to that level of prowess - and he is not meant to - as his starting BAB of zero implies.
 

Re: Re: Re: What's Up With The Monk?

Hammerhead said:


You need a Druid to cast the Magic Fang spells. I usually don't see people playing Druids, how about you? Therefore, it's not unreasonable to think that the wizard or cleric might be making magic weapons, but not a nifty +2 or +3 mighty fist amulet for the monk.
In my campaign, the druid is probably the character who does the most damage on the baddies. Well, more specifically it's the druid's huge dire badger who does the damage, but it's still the druid's fault.
 

Shard O'Glase said:
monks are fine. If you want the monk th be a front line fighter put your best stat in str. Don't put a 12 there and then whine that the fighter does way more damage.

Don't mistake my meaning. The problem was brought to light by the need of a front line fighter, but the Monk's deficiency in this regard isn't the problem I see.

The problem I see is that the Monks don't excel at *anything*. There is no niche the Monk fills.

I'm leaning toward giving the Monk a new special ability, like so:

Power Of The Will
At 3rd level a Monk may add up to +1 of his Wisdom Bonus to his attacks and damage, and may attack creatures with his bare hands that require +1 weapons if his Wisdom bonus is at least +1

Then at 6th, and 9th levels, increase this bonus to 2, and 3. This would certainly remove my "what the hell good is being able to bypass DR 5/+1 at 10th level when anything that's GOT DR has at least +2 by then. Shadows have the +1 thing and they're CR 3.

I think the Monk needs too many stats to do well in the first place. Consolidating these under Wisdom would be good. Monk needs high STR to fight, high DEX to get AC and high WIS to power up his special abilities. I think I can fix that.
 

Again, you're assuming the monk is unarmed. Big assumption. No reason why a monk can't use a +2 kama at 10th level to circumvent that +2 DR. Suggest to your monks that they buy magic weapons and use them as the need arises.
 

mattcolville said:


The problem I see is that the Monks don't excel at *anything*. There is no niche the Monk fills.


They have evasion, fast movement, good saving throws, ability to survive falls, immunity from diseases, etc., etc.

They excel at handling a number of different threats, and being very self-reliant, moreso than the fighter who has less skills and poorer saves.

They excel at moving behind the enemy very quickly and interrupting/incapacitating spellcasters.

I think you're looking at the classes too generically.
 
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