What's with the Gnome Hate?

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

It doesn't help that TSR, WotC and even Kenzer seem to hire people who don't seem to have any enthusiasm for gnomes to write their gnome supplements.

Companies: Don't do it until you find someone who can write (and on deadline and to a word count) that is pumped about them. Really, this is good advice for any topic, but it's especially glaring when you do it with gnomes.

Note: I can write (and on deadline and to a word count) and I am pumped about them. See my Unified Theory post for my take on them.

 

[Vocenoctum]

Isn't it funny though that your "out there" campaign had a halfling variant, but still no gnome.

Uh, no, because gnomes are a normal part of D&D...?

There was no human either, so obviously they're rare. Or something. I'm not sure what point you were going for.

It's not a unified vision of boringness. That's what I don't get. It's not that people hated gnomes, its that gnomes were completely and utterly forgotten about in most games. I'm sorry for both gnome fans, but, so few people EVER played them. I did. I played gnomes a couple of times. But, I'm the only person I've ever played with who did.

As I mentioned, gnomes had no one at WotC to champion their cause and were sort of left to the side. (In 3e) When they decided they needed "new races", rather than use them to fill a role they wanted filled, they felt safe to axe them.

And really, it's not even that most times. It's the dismissive part of it ("I'm sorry for both gnome fans") that aggravates the situation. "Common wisdom" says gnomes weren't popular, so when people complained to WotC about the lack of gnome figures in DDM, WotC felt safe in making their April Fools article. Did we get more gnomes in DDM? Not really, a few trickled here and there. (There are far more kobolds than gnomes. And since the "factions" are supposed to be balanced, it's not even an issue of "we need more monsters".)

It's not like they stepped back and said, "Oh, hey, here's this really interesting race that everyone likes to play, let's axe that." It's far closer to say, "Oh hey, here's this race that's been taking up space in the PHB for thirty years that almost no one ever plays. Let's axe that."

I assume it was "okay, we can't kick elf, dwarf or halfling. Anyone care about the other races? No, okay, lets go with what we know."

I would be willing to be dollars to donuts, that if you looked at the RPGA stats, you'd see that half orcs and gnomes place WAY at the bottom of the player barrel.

I always figured most of them just grab a pre-gen character and play, but it would be interesting to see the racial divide on long-running characters.

No one hates gnomes. Or at least about as many people hate gnomes as like them. The vast majority just plain out don't care.

Thirty years hasn't made gnomes interesting. How much longer should they keep trying?

The main thing with threads like this is that they serve no purpose. No one that disliked gnomes will read something I wrote and say "oh, now I get it, thanks". It certainly won't change WotC's mind.

"Thirty years", well they've been interesting in the original, and there were sparks here and there. It's more that gnomes don't get a good chance due to "conventional wisdom". "We don't need a gnome book, they're not popular enough". So one was never made, and there is no market research there. 15 elf books, sure, everyone loves elves... (or at least, they're championed at TSR/WotC)

Plus, most folks agree that Eberron did gnomes great.

WotC doesn't even try to throw gnome fans a bone. They basically ignore us, really. I fully expected there to be a gnome write up on the website when the PHB hit, but nothing. Perhaps the numbers are that insignificant, but I don't think it is.

 

[The Grumpy Celt]

A series of poor decisions led gnomes to being like rabbits or sheep. Rabbits and sheep are not sexy. Foxes and wolves are sexy. Had gnomes been given an edge or sharp teeth (not evil or deadly, just not dull), they would have been kept around. But someone thought they needed to be made mostly helpless and hapless – and so in the hearts and minds of people they have been replaced by deadly things, sexy things.

 

[Hussar]

Uh, no, because gnomes are a normal part of D&D...?

There was no human either, so obviously they're rare. Or something. I'm not sure what point you were going for.

My point was that you consider Kender to be "out there" when they're just a variant halfling, but, no one played a variant gnome.

As I mentioned, gnomes had no one at WotC to champion their cause and were sort of left to the side. (In 3e) When they decided they needed "new races", rather than use them to fill a role they wanted filled, they felt safe to axe them.

This goes WAY before WOTC. There's a reason B/E D&D had no gnomes. How many 1e or 2e adventures featured gnomes? How many books featured gnomes? How many gnomes do you see in D&D fiction? How many gnomes are there in Darksun? On and on.

And really, it's not even that most times. It's the dismissive part of it ("I'm sorry for both gnome fans") that aggravates the situation. "Common wisdom" says gnomes weren't popular, so when people complained to WotC about the lack of gnome figures in DDM, WotC felt safe in making their April Fools article. Did we get more gnomes in DDM? Not really, a few trickled here and there. (There are far more kobolds than gnomes. And since the "factions" are supposed to be balanced, it's not even an issue of "we need more monsters".)



I assume it was "okay, we can't kick elf, dwarf or halfling. Anyone care about the other races? No, okay, lets go with what we know."

Yup. You got it. It's all down to numbers. People cared about the other races. They feature heavily in most, if not all settings, fiction, adventures, video games, etc. ((Note, I'm specifically referring to D&D here before you point to WOW))

I always figured most of them just grab a pre-gen character and play, but it would be interesting to see the racial divide on long-running characters.

Not for Living Campaign play. No pregens.

The main thing with threads like this is that they serve no purpose. No one that disliked gnomes will read something I wrote and say "oh, now I get it, thanks". It certainly won't change WotC's mind.

"Thirty years", well they've been interesting in the original, and there were sparks here and there. It's more that gnomes don't get a good chance due to "conventional wisdom". "We don't need a gnome book, they're not popular enough". So one was never made, and there is no market research there. 15 elf books, sure, everyone loves elves... (or at least, they're championed at TSR/WotC)

Plus, most folks agree that Eberron did gnomes great.

WotC doesn't even try to throw gnome fans a bone. They basically ignore us, really. I fully expected there to be a gnome write up on the website when the PHB hit, but nothing. Perhaps the numbers are that insignificant, but I don't think it is.

That they didn't throw gnome fans a bone pretty much speaks to the numbers.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

A series of poor decisions led gnomes to being like rabbits or sheep. Rabbits and sheep are not sexy. Foxes and wolves are sexy. Had gnomes been given an edge or sharp teeth (not evil or deadly, just not dull), they would have been kept around. But someone thought they needed to be made mostly helpless and hapless – and so in the hearts and minds of people they have been replaced by deadly things, sexy things.

The same thing, incidentally, that happened to the OD&D through 2E hobbit/halflings. What we have now has pretty much no resemblance to anything from Lord of the Rings, other than the name. Instead we have black clad dreadlock-considering super-thieves.

Truthfully, if they'd just merged gnomes and halflings and stuck with the gnome name, fans of both shorty races (and I count myself as a fan of the original D&D halflings -- I even ran an all-hobbit campaign set in Mystara once) would have been better served.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

This goes WAY before WOTC. There's a reason B/E D&D had no gnomes.

Top Ballista!

How many 1e or 2e adventures featured gnomes?

D2 springs immediately to mind.

How many books featured gnomes?

Complete Book of Halflings & Gnomes and Races of Stone are all that I immediately think of.

How many gnomes are there in Darksun?

Why is a niche setting inspired by E.R. Burroughs any sort of litmus test for standard D&D? Dark Sun didn't feature a lot of stuff from standard D&D.

Yup. You got it. It's all down to numbers. People cared about the other races. They feature heavily in most, if not all settings, fiction, adventures, video games, etc. ((Note, I'm specifically referring to D&D here before you point to WOW))

Of course, when you open the field up to other forms of media, pretty much all non-D&D fantasy games that feature traditional races feature gnomes. Heck, the latest EQ1 expansion is almost entirely gnome themed (with an extra helping of apocalyptic god-like unique dragon for good measure).

When EQ1 was at its height during the late 2E era, there were a quarter of a million people playing a game featuring techy, magical gnomes and their clockwork city. Was 2E pulling in those sorts of numbers? Obviously, not all of EQ1's success can be traced to the presence of gnomes, but how many computer games have to be released featuring gnomes before it suggests that, whatever the TSR/WotC powers that be might like, there's a bunch of gnome fans out there -- who are now less catered to than they were in previous incarnations of AD&D.

That they didn't throw gnome fans a bone pretty much speaks to the numbers.

How is it that other WotC decisions can be quirky or even bone-headed, but gnome hating has an alleged basis in cold, hard facts?

 

[Vocenoctum]

My point was that you consider Kender to be "out there" when they're just a variant halfling, but, no one played a variant gnome.

Nope, still no good.
I spoke of one group/one game, it didn't feature variant elves or dwarves either, and that doesn't speak to either race. I don't consider kender or half-dryads to be "out there", those are your words. And Kender were fine when played right, and served MUCH better when they and halflings were seperated.

We've played with variant gnomes, we've played drow, we've played almost everything. My point was simply that it depends more on the player and the group dynamic.

This goes WAY before WOTC. There's a reason B/E D&D had no gnomes.

Yes, because the basic game was... basic. It reduced things to the simplest core in order to present an easy format. I noticed you stopped at B/E though. I forget, what "tier" did they introduce gnomes in? Masters?

Yup. You got it. It's all down to numbers. People cared about the other races. They feature heavily in most, if not all settings, fiction, adventures, video games, etc. ((Note, I'm specifically referring to D&D here before you point to WOW))

It's all down to the perception of numbers, sure. And the fact they were lacking in material serves as a point on why they are forgotten, not validation for forgetting them. "They were never popular enough to be popular."

Not for Living Campaign play. No pregens.

Then numbers would be interesting to see. Along with numbers for 4e, to see how many tieflings roll in.

That they didn't throw gnome fans a bone pretty much speaks to the numbers.

It pretty much speaks to the bias of the creators. A gnome-pamphlet online would have taken little effort to appease some fans, instead they made... ::drumroll::
"I'm a monster, rawr"

The anti-gnome bias is easy to see. That doesn't mean there was marketing research to see if gnomes presence drew more than their absence. Gnomes are VERY popular in WoW. It's also "cool" to hate them. That doesn't diminish their popularity.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Gnomes are one of the least popular races in WoW, which means there's probably only 1 or 2 million gnome players. I suspect that's still enough of an audience to try and play to, on WotC's side.

 

[Kzach]

I like the cut of this guy's jib: http://gnomesarefood.com/

 

[Thunderfoot]

gnomes were never that hard to figure out. you have 2 real options:

1. Magical, and not very serious
2. Tinkering, and machine building
<SNIP>.

Except that in 1e they were magical, hill dwelling miners that were cousins to the dwarves, that enjoyed practical jokes, but were VERY serious in all other aspects of their lives. My personal favorite and most often overlooked variant.

1e gnomes were very similar to 3e halflings. When halflings became more like kender *shudder* and less like hobbits, the gnome became overshadowed, plain and simple. However, since my hate of kender knows no limits, this whole dilemma has NEVER been a problem for me. Gnomes rock! (get it) And the only good kender is lightly toasted kender rotating on a spit for 2 hours and 45 minutes until golden brown and covered in a light honey glaze; preferably served with a cold stein of dwarven ale.