What's wrong with metamagic?

[Estlor]

The only problem with using a combination skill/feat solution is that is stretches a wizard's already thin skill point pool even thinner. When you consider that, chances are, they're taking Spellcraft at each level as it is, it limits the viability of taking ranks in a cross class skill.

Now, if you're using it as a method to make metamagic the domain of high-level wizards that have maxed out their intelligence score and finally scraped together enough bonus skill points to get between 5 to 10 ranks in that skill, it does a good job.

 

[swrushing]

As one of the oddballs, metamagic got a lot of use in my last campaign (lvls 3-15).

Silent, Still got the most use, and extend got the next most use, with empower coming in third. The higher level increases saw little use.

I think a lot of the demand, or lack thereof, for these in a given campaign may well be due to challenges presented by the GM. If you don't have situations/scenarios where the "easy to hear from a distance" spellcasting is an issue, then you wont have PCs that see "silent spell" as something wrth worrying about except for the odd "i got held and need to cast dispel magic. Good thing i know silent and still!"

 

[Doug McCrae]

A maximized empowered split twinned Enervation followed by a quickened Enervation should end the day for many opponents (4+d4*.5+d4+d4+d4 negative levels (12~13 on average)).

It's a lot worse than that.

Enervation = 1d4
Split ray = 2d4
Twin spell = 4d4
Maximise spell = 16
Empower spell = 16 + 4d4/2 (Average = 21)

 

[sumi]

Anyone who does not go down the route of metamagic is a fool in my opinion. My DM is a great fan of it. Hence why a party of 5 11/12th level members and a group of frost giants entered a room and attacked a couple of ice golems. Doors open and instantly a maximised 16th level fireball and quickened fireball came off in the round. A total of 150+ points of damage. DC 21 reflex save required. Frost giants vapourised, rest fled and party members singed around the edges due to protection and luck, otherwise total party kill.

 

[RodneyThompson]

Great stuff so far guys, keep it coming. A lot of this is as I suspected, and I see a lot of people using house rules, so this is exactly what I am looking for.

 

[Doug McCrae]

The standard metamagic feats don't enhance a spell to the equivalent of the next higher spell level (or a spell 4 levels higher, in the case of Quicken Spell), so the maths basically doesn't work.

I'd say they do.

Empowered fireball = 15d6, level = 5
Cone of cold = 15d6, level = 5

Twinned or energy admixed fireball = 20d6, level = 7
Delayed blast fireball = 20d6, level = 7

However the metamagick version can be cast earlier, so mm-ed spells are actually a bit better than the non mm-ed variety.

Split Ray, from Complete Arcane, lets you punch above your weight even more as it doubles the effect (like Twin Spell) but only adds two to the spell level. The drawback is it only works on rays.

 

[Narfellus]

Metamagic is too costly in 3.5 ed. That's my biggest gripe with it. First off, you can't even try to use quicken or maximize at low level, and by the time you can afford it, you don't want to. Fortunately, there's lots of simple ways to houserule it.

a) Midnight uses spell point, +1 to +4 additional cost depending on the feat, no extra casting time. Simple enough.

b) I use action points in my campaigns to emulated feats. If a wizards wants to Quicken a spell, he can burn an Action Point, take a Full Round to cast the spell, then release it as a Free Action the next round and proceed normally from there. I stipulated that to emulate a Feat you don't have MUST cost one full round to do it.

c) Another idea i toyed with is the slot system. At the bottom, 3 cantrips equals one 1st level spell power-wise. If you want to cast a Still Magic Missle, you use up one slot for magic missle, and one slot for the (+1) for the feat. But the slot can be taken from anywhere. You can burn three cantrips and do the same thing. You can cast a Maximized fireball by cashing in the appropriate number of spell levels. Arcana Unearthed might have a similar mechanic, i'm not sure. I just rule that you can't Quicken any spell over 5th level.

 

[jmucchiello]

I'd say they do.

Empowered fireball = 15d6, level = 5
Cone of cold = 15d6, level = 5

And the empowered fireball is fire, not cold. Energy Sub is a second feat.

Twinned or energy admixed fireball = 20d6, level = 7
Delayed blast fireball = 20d6, level = 7

The twinned spell does 20d6 at 13th level, the delayed blast fireball does 13d6 at 13th level.

My 15th level character has about 5-8 prepared spells that use metamagic feats: generally quicken or empower. Empowered chain lightning does 22d6 to the primary target. How else do you do 22d6 at 15th level?

While I've never felt they were underpowered, I do admit I didn't bother with metamagic until around 11th level. Once there were enough high level slots, metamagic became more useful. I'm sure as the character continues to gain high level slots, the number of high level slots being used by metamagicked lower level spells will go up.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Another way to increase the power of metamagic is to use the Easy Metamagic feat from Dragon 325. This reduces the spell level increase of one other metamagic feat by one (to a minimum of +1). So Easy Maximise Spell would have a level adjustment of +2 for example.

Though the feat cost is high, this really lets you go nuts.

An Easy Twinned, Easy Empowered scorching ray (a 6th level spell) would do 36d6, no save.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Have the metamagic feats been used equally, or did you notice a certain "overuse" of the one's that have a higher spell level modifier?

It seems to me, that you gain more (altho the number of spells you can use them on is lower) with those feats, that's why I came to the solution linked above, where a lower spell level modifier grants a double advantage.

Bye
Thanee

We use that option in our games, and it hasn't unbalanced anything. The thing to remember is that there's still a level cap. You can't, for example, quicken a fireball until you have access to 7th level spells. And then you can quicken 3 spells a day, of levels 1-3. This keeps the power level under control, but keeps metamagic useful.

Actually, the only real difference I've noticed in the way a metamagic feat comes into play is with Persistent Spell. The caster with that spell always, every single day, casts 3 buff spells that last all day. Of course, the adjustment is very high, so it tends to be things like Blur, the Detect spells, See Invisibility, Tongues, or other utility/defense spells. But at the caster level you need to be at in order to even use the feat, these aren't unbalancing enhancements, and give your low-level spells some extra mileage.

OTOH, this option may or may not be advantageous for a sorcerer...