What's wrong with metamagic?

[Gez]

My metamagic house rules:
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• Heighten Spell disappear. Any spellcaster can do that naturally. In other words, this feat is given freely to everyone.
• Each metamagic feat has a level. This level is equal to level increase to the metamagiced spell. For example, Extend is level 1, Empower is level 2, and Maximize is level 3. This rule, in itself, does not change anything, but it is useful for the next rule:
• Each metamagic feat may be used "suddenly" a number of time per day equal to 4 - level. So, Extend may be used for free 3 times a day.
• Metamagic feats may be taken several time. Each time, it adds 4 to the number of time per day it can be used suddenly. So, if you take Empower Spell twice, you'd get 6 sudden empowering per day.
• Quicken Spell is level 3 rather than level 4. That way, it isn't totally useless for sorcerers. (And it's a trade-off for the nerfing of haste.)
• The sudden metamagic feats do not exist, having been included in their normal version.

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[TheAuldGrump]

Hmmm, I agree that a lot of Metamagic feats have too high a cost. For huge battles Widen can be handy, and for tough one Maximize.

Quicken is nifty, but when I am GMing it somehow feels like cheating. (I still use it though )

The Metamagic Rods.... Those I like, though for some reason Widen seems to have missed the list, I treat it the same as Maximize for price, I think that it just got left off by accident.

But my favorite use is to create scrolls with Metamagiced spells, that way you can be prepared for an emergency and the extra casting level is not as horrible, just pricey. A Maximized Fireball scroll brings smiles to my player's faces when they find it in treasure, while they will say 'ho hum' if they find a couple of normal fireballs. Yes, they could create it themselves, but it just brightens their day that they don't have to. And they will save that scroll, waiting for just the right occassion, whereas they will just use the fireball scrolls. Players are strange creatures. And even when the enemy wizard uses it on them it does not seem to bother them any more than taking that damage normally would.

The Auld Grump

 

[Thanee]

I cannot imagine playing a spontaneous caster (well, apart from a bard), especially the mother of all spontaneous casters, the sorcerer, without metamagic. Metamagic is HUGE for them. 2 or 3 metamagic feats almost double the options a sorcerer has. With spontaneous application, metamagic lives up to what it is meant to be.

Prepared casters have very little use for metamagic, however.

For prepared casters it is also the "problem", that there is generally very little gain in using a metamagicked spell instead of a spell of the higher level.

Why use Empower on a Fireball, if you can cast Firebrand instead. The advantage isn't big enough to justify taking the feat.

I once had a rogue/wizard with the Silent Spell feat. Seemed to fit well to the concept, so I chose it as the wizardly bonus feat. How often do you think I actually used it in game (character was played quite a lot)?

Right. Not a single time. Often it would have been cool, if it could have been applied spontaneously, but with the preparation ahead of time you simply do not know whether it will be useful and the higher level spell has more general uses, so is always a better option.

End of the story, I swapped it out for Empower Spell (with DM consensus, of course), which (under 3.0 rules), was incredibly useful for a wizard (I don't think I would take it under 3.5 rules, tho).

There are only those feats, which add something entirely new, which are great even for the prepared casters... top of the lot is Quicken Spell, which is by far the best metamagic feat for prepared casters (especially cleric and wizard).

The Sudden Metamagic feats are meant to address this issue.

Sudden Maximize seems to be the only really worthwhile of the Sudden Metamagic feats.
Sudden Empower is ok still, but that's about it, the rest is just of too little use.
Sudden Still and Silent are great in theory, but 1/day is a bit much of a limitation.
Not worth spending a feat on such a weak ability, in general.

HERE you can read about my (not yet entirely complete) idea to change metamagic and make it more useful, especially for prepared casters (is based on the UA variant).

Bye
Thanee

 

[DarkMaster]

I'll go down the list.
Empower Spell: You're able to improve a low level spell's performance by 50% by casting it at 2 levels higher. This is never as good as casting the spell twice. Variables rolled tend to an average result somewhere in the middle, which means that your Empowered Fireball may do 45-50 points instead of around 30-35 and you're using a 5th level slot. It may seem like a pay-off when you roll high and do around 75 points damage, but there are 5th level spells that are often more effective and if you roll low and only get 15-20 damage, that is only increased to maybe an average result. This isn't nearly as effective as the higher level spell that cannot be prepared because of this.

True but it takes you two rounds to cast two fireball

Enlarge Spell: This one is probably one of the least useless of the metamagic feats, doubling range for an increase of only 1 level. However, combat spells tend to already have very good ranges, so the usefulness there is almost moot. Other spells with shorter ranges can always benefit from this, except for touch spells which can't be doubled anyway. Most spells with a short range are short ranged for a reason. Charm type spells for example require interaction with the caster. That can't happen if they are too far away.

You don't really have a convincing argument here. Charm spell are a very specific type of spell.

Extend Spell: This is a good idea in theory and but is even more useless than most other metamagics. You're doubling duration for casting it 1 level higher. This is nothing that couldn't be solved by casting the spell a second time instead. A wizard with a ring of wizardry (or similar item) can use that item for a free second casting of ANY spell of a particular level and wouldn't need to spend one of his few feats on this.

Partly true. But what about the bard 10 will finally meet the Duke, He really wants to impress him he cast Eagle splendor on himself. 10 minutes later he is still in the meeting the spell wears off, Sorry duke I will just cast a spell and we can continue.
The druid is in the middle of a large fight cast hold animal on a creature for a few round. If the fight is not over by the time the spell expires he has to recast the spell losing one round during the fight when this could have been prevented by casting it 1 level higher.

Heighten Spell: This is the WORST of all metamagic feats. You prepare it at a higher level for all the benefits of casting it at a higher level. Why would a wizard spend a feat on this when they could do it on their own without wasting a feat? Spell research. They want a magic missile that can beat a globe of invulnerability, do the research. The wizard would end up with a spell that would be even better than the lower level spell while still doing the same thing.

Not all wizards have months ahead of them to research spell they can do at a cost of a single feat. They can take the feat and research unique spell.

Maximize Spell: The price on this is too expensive. It is utterly wasteful on any spell less than 3rd level and on any spell higher than 3rd level, the higher level slot that is getting taken over could be used for a spell that is more effective anyway. A maximized fireball might be demoralizing to an army of orcs, but it would be even more devastating when the leader of those orcs was disintegrated or turned to stone or if acid cloud, chain lightning or circle of death ripped through them!

Partially agree my range goes more between 2 and 5. Maximise empowered false life are fun to cast in the morning.

Quicken Spell: Casting two spells in one round is an awesome thing for any wizard, but again the amount of spell level increase makes it too much to be worthwhile. A spell adjusted this way will be one of the highest level spells a mid level wizard can cast and seems rather anti-climatic or overkill to throw out a good 4th or 6th level spell and then snap out a 1st or 2nd right after it. It might be good for a surprise, to catch someone off guard, allow for a quick escape or something, but a dimension door would work better than a quickened expeditious retreat.

Again time. You cast a spell as a free action. You can use to execute a killer spell combo in one round. As for Dimension door, sometimes I would prefer the quickened expeditious retreat. One causes an AoO the other don't and since the withdraw action doesn't any AoO Sometimes the second option is much better then the first.

Silent and Still Spells: These are both neat ideas but shouldn't involve any level adjusting of the spell at all. The power level and function of the spell is not being adjusted one iota, it is only allowing the caster to disregard one of the components (verbal or somatic). This should be done by maybe extending the casting time to a full round or two rounds even or losing a slot of equal level at best.

Partially true but what if I don't have a full round or two round ahead of me can I decide to pay that 1 level cost.

Widen Spell: See comments on Maximize Spell.

The one factor that makes all these metamagics useless is that the caster can research spells at a higher level that would do these things and likely more since they would be a higher level. Yes, research takes time and money, but, honestly, how many different spells is a wizard going to empower or silence? Yes, it all depends on circumstance, but the wizard won't know that circumstance until he is already in it, then he better have the correct spell for the situation adjusted or his feat and the spell he prepared is useless. No, not only useless, but wasteful as a higher level spell more appropriate to the situation could have been used instead.

Self contradicting argument. Better to waste time on money on spell you don't know if you will really need when taking a feat gives you the flexibility and save your precious time and money to buy/create/research better things.

A lot of trouble could be avoid just by an extra casting of the spell that would be altered too, instead of adjusting it with metamagic and forfeiting being able to cast a more powerful spell.

The Sudden Metamagic feats nearly made me spit out what I was drinking when I read about them! Taking a feat to use another feat 1/day is...stupid! So what if you get to alter 1 spell without changing its level. Taking a feat (one of the 11--12 if human--possible feats a 20th level wizard would have) to alter just 1 spell a day is ludicrous. Yes, there are people who will say it only takes that 1 spell at the right time to make the difference. But how often does that happen? Still, if a wizard wants to use one of the few feats they get for adjusting 1 spell, 1/day, then I'm happy for them. Fighters don't take bonus feats that let them do one thing 1/day, I don't even think they have feats like that for fighters. Make the regular metamagic feats do what the Sudden feats do, in addition to their normal use, and more players might consider taking them if they are inclined to take them at all.

I wouldn't want my wizard to be able to cast more than once a day two maximised meteor swarm in a round.

I've house ruled for my games that wizards that take metamagic feats get one free use of the feat per day--free of level adjustment. I've had plenty of wizards play but none of them have ever taken or wanted to take a metamagic feat, unless it was a mandatory requirement for another feat, ability or prestige class; and then, it was never used, only just to meet the requirement.

Build a wizard that blast them with two empowered fireball in a round, all of a sudden they will realise the potential of your house rule.

 

[Thanee]

Extend Spell: This is a good idea in theory and but is even more useless than most other metamagics. You're doubling duration for casting it 1 level higher. This is nothing that couldn't be solved by casting the spell a second time instead.

It's a "convenience feat" and has its uses, but it was better when it was stackable with itself. Nowadays it's less useful.

My Favored Soul has it, tho, and I like it.

A wizard with a ring of wizardry (or similar item) can use that item for a free second casting of ANY spell of a particular level and wouldn't need to spend one of his few feats on this.

Ring of wizardry is underpowered and overcosted.
Take pearl of power instead, those are at least worth the price.

Besides, that's a rather high cost, probably more than a feat is worth if you can put a gp price on them for comparison with a magic item, so the benefit should be higher.

Heighten Spell: This is the WORST of all metamagic feats. You prepare it at a higher level for all the benefits of casting it at a higher level. Why would a wizard spend a feat on this when they could do it on their own without wasting a feat?

For a wizard, yes. For a sorcerer it's golden. Not every feat is good for every class... Take Heighten Spell for a fighter once...

Quicken Spell: Casting two spells in one round is an awesome thing for any wizard, but again the amount of spell level increase makes it too much to be worthwhile.

Tell that to the high level wizard who just defeated you in a single round, thanks to this "too costly to be worthwhile" feat.

A spell adjusted this way will be one of the highest level spells a mid level wizard can cast and seems rather anti-climatic or overkill to throw out a good 4th or 6th level spell and then snap out a 1st or 2nd right after it. It might be good for a surprise, to catch someone off guard, allow for a quick escape or something, but a dimension door would work better than a quickened expeditious retreat.

How about a quickened Dimension Door? Not all feats are meant for low-mid levels.

Silent and Still Spells: These are both neat ideas but shouldn't involve any level adjusting of the spell at all. The power level and function of the spell is not being adjusted one iota, it is only allowing the caster to disregard one of the components (verbal or somatic). This should be done by maybe extending the casting time to a full round or two rounds even or losing a slot of equal level at best.

I kinda agree here. The cost is still too high, even with just +1 levels. +0 levels would be a bit too low, tho.

But how often does that happen?

1/day... not too bad.

But only really worth it with Sudden Maximize.

Fighters don't take bonus feats that let them do one thing 1/day

Stunning Fist. At least up to 7th level.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Build a wizard that blast them with two empowered fireball in a round, all of a sudden they will realise the potential of your house rule.

Don't be shy...

A maximized empowered split twinned Enervation followed by a quickened Enervation should end the day for many opponents (4+d4*.5+d4+d4+d4 negative levels (12~13 on average)).

You need 5 feats and you must be able to cast 4th level spells.

7th level human wizard can do that (1/day). Makes the meeting with the BBEG a little less frightening, unless he is immune to energy drain.

And don't forget the 9th level cleric with the persistent Divine Power and quickened Righteous Might standing guard.

Bye
Thanee

 

[shilsen]

A number of people have already posted reasons why metamagic doesn't get used as much, so I won't repeat them. I noticed the same situation in my games since, whether DMing or playing, my PCs/NPCs would invariably be the only ones using metamagic feats.

I have noticed an improvement once I started using the spontaneous metamagic rules from Unearthed Arcana, which allows all casters to use metamagic feats they have on the fly (each can be used up to 3/day). I allowed that and made it a little easier for spontaneous casters, and thus far, it has worked fine. And hasn't caused any balance/power problems either.

 

[Thanee]

And hasn't caused any balance/power problems either.

Have the metamagic feats been used equally, or did you notice a certain "overuse" of the one's that have a higher spell level modifier?

It seems to me, that you gain more (altho the number of spells you can use them on is lower) with those feats, that's why I came to the solution linked above, where a lower spell level modifier grants a double advantage.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Man-thing]

I'm currently using the rules on Metamagic Verbalisation from Encyclopedia Arcane: Dragon Magic.

Basically you need a new skill called Speak High Draconic (That is trained only, and cross classed for all) and based of int. Learning ranks in it cost a spell slot per 5 ranks. But you can use metamagic effects without the feats as you shape the true form of magic

The DC to use a Metamagic effect = 15 + original spell level + 2*level adjustment (If you do have the feat its x1)

Casting in this manner is a standard action. If you roll a natural 1 there is a spell misfire chance equal to twice the intended DC. (Chart of effects included)

So far things are working well. Although there has been the odd misfire.

 

[Henry]

The biggest problem I think is that they are not proportional in power to the power-creep experienced by using supplemental materials. In other words, in games where only the core rules are used, metamagic seems to get used and has its place, particularly in scrolls and magic items. But compared to other feats and spells from supplements, it can't hold a candle. Thanee said it best - why empower a fireball, when you can use firebrand? Simple answer - if there IS no firebrand to use, then Empowered fireballs are both effective and well-costed.

For a practical answer, in games where supplements are a given, I'd say beefing up is required, possibly just doing away with "Sudden" metamagic and using them as the standard metamagics. Though I must say I like Gez's answer best so far. It shows a consistency that the current system lacks (And quicken spell is most likely overpriced in truth).