I guess you don't like Elric, then?
Elric is a fine protagonist in a novel. Don't know as how he's a good model for PCs, though. Novels and RPGs are very different mediums and many concepts don't translate well from one to the other.
What's wrong with the magic item Christmas tree?
- Thread starter Bullgrit
- Start date
Elric is a fine protagonist in a novel. Don't know as how he's a good model for PCs, though. Novels and RPGs are very different mediums and many concepts don't translate well from one to the other.
Haffrung Helleyes
First Post
magic items
To me, lots of goofy magic items are what defines D&D. The Apparatus of Kwalish, a +1 flame tongue sword, the rod of lordly might... I think having items like this be part of the game is important.
I don't feel the same attachment for the 3E stat boosters. I don't think the Headband of Intellect improved the game, for some reason. Perhaps because they're ubiquitous?
In any case, I agree with those here who say that number of magic items isn't the issue, but rather that a few always-pick magic items come to dominate.
Ken
To me, lots of goofy magic items are what defines D&D. The Apparatus of Kwalish, a +1 flame tongue sword, the rod of lordly might... I think having items like this be part of the game is important.
I don't feel the same attachment for the 3E stat boosters. I don't think the Headband of Intellect improved the game, for some reason. Perhaps because they're ubiquitous?
In any case, I agree with those here who say that number of magic items isn't the issue, but rather that a few always-pick magic items come to dominate.
Ken
This has been my understanding as well.
ExploderWizard
Hero
I can agree with this. Also the thing that ruins the feel of magic items isn't just how many of them a character has but the constant "cycling through" and upgrading of items for nearly identical items with larger plusses. That in itself is kind of flat and boring but combined with a rules system that maps this out on some kind of level based upgrade schedule turns it into the most nonmagical experience I can think of.
Jeremy Ackerman-Yost
Explorer
That makes a commitment to a very specific style of game, which is fine if that's your cup of tea, but you have to admit that it's very narratively limiting.
Jeff Wilder
First Post
It also means that any pure spellcasters in the party will be even more relatively powerful. (There are many fewer save-DC boosting items than attack-bonus and damage-bonus boosting items. In 3E, at least.)
I think it's important to note that the +stat items fell in line with statistics rising as you leveled, which in turn can be held as happening due to point buy slowly emerging over stat rolling.
In other words, once stats became no longer static, it became a case where rising them incrementally instead of making an item that sets your stats somewhere became more important. After all, if there's an item that gives you +2 strength and one that sets your strength to 18, and you already started with 18 and have been raising it every 4 levels, which one will get use?
That's why you saw the +stat items - statistics were no longer static. A belt of giant strength that gave you the strength of giants wasn't that useful if you already had that level of strength, in other words.
In other words, once stats became no longer static, it became a case where rising them incrementally instead of making an item that sets your stats somewhere became more important. After all, if there's an item that gives you +2 strength and one that sets your strength to 18, and you already started with 18 and have been raising it every 4 levels, which one will get use?
That's why you saw the +stat items - statistics were no longer static. A belt of giant strength that gave you the strength of giants wasn't that useful if you already had that level of strength, in other words.
(Psi)SeveredHead
Adventurer
A little from column A, a little from column B.
In 3.x, magic items caused these problems, IMO:
1) Made it difficult for the DM to give out treasure properly. IME, every single time I DM'ed, the players didn't get enough items. If you followed the encounter treasure guidelines to the letter, you found PCs were underequipped. (And usually I couldn't follow the guidelines properly; I found myself spending as much time statting out treasure as statting out NPCs. I hated that!)
2) If you changed the rate of treasure granted for any reason, you had problems. Some DMs wanted to give out XP faster or slower; you now need to change the treasure output to compensate. Some DMs wanted to run low magic, and often underestimated how difficult this was in 3.x. (See point 4)
3) It made NPCs weak. In order to keep from overloading PCs with treasure, you couldn't use NPCs too often (or maybe I wasn't using them often enough; do I really need the ruleset to hold my hand on that point?) and of course a 12th-level NPC can't have as much treasure as a 12th-level PC. Which means that some classes (eg fighters) got shafted when used as NPCs, while others (like wizards) weren't strongly affected.
4) It encouraged "blood for blood" character design, which is to say characters who could dish it out but couldn't take it. PCs (and classed NPCs) could boost their offense (BAB, save DCs) through level-ups, but you boost AC and saves through magic items (rings, magic armor, maybe magic shield, ring of force shield, cloak of resistance). There were quite a few spells (like Protection from Spells) that sucked because, by the time you got them, your expected items were overlapping them. (For instance, if a 15th-level mage who wants to cast Protection from Spells has a +4 Cloak of Resistance, he's only really getting a +4 bonus from casting Protection from Spells. By contrast, a pit fiend or balor is almost guaranteed a large bonus from casting Unholy Aura, sine he has few items that are likely to overlap it.)
One of the great things about d20 Modern and 4e, IMO, are that characters (beyond monks) can actually learn to parry and dodge!
Because 4e is rules transparent, and because the offense and defensive value of magic items are balanced with each other, you could toss magic items completely out of the campaign, modify monster levels slightly, and play with minimal disruption. I'm thinking of running 4e Dark Sun, and I hope I can do something like that.
5) There's only so many slots! Monks need to boost their Wisdom with a periapt of Wisdom. Monks also need Amulets of Mighty Fists. Guess which slots they take up? Oh, isn't that the same ones...
And don't get me started on wildshaping druids and the sheer nuttiness of when exactly do you gain and lose bonus spells. Just don't
howandwhy99
Adventurer
There really is no magic item Christmas tree problem in my opinion. Part of it came about from munchkinism a long time ago when the game was more uniform between groups. And then kids would bring in all kinds of high powered PCs with tons of magic items and expect to be as respected as high level players since power level often meant the latter at the time. Monty Haulism is perfectly fine for any game. No one has to play Mr. Gygax's hidden AD&D rules to be playing "real" D&D. They're just guidelines in my view.
The concept of absolute balance between PCs is one of the cardinal changes in the history of game design. For magic items to be meaningful they need to have an alteration in PC abilities. If all PCs are going to be the same quantifiable power level, then these must be the same across every PC and whether or not any one PC has magic items or not. It's definitely a play style and can be designed for.
StreamOfTheSky
Adventurer
Has anyone ever statted out progressions for "natural" enhancements? (...and that sounds wrong...) I mean, if you wanted to take the +x' out of the magic item pot, the rates characters would gain such bonuses? I was bored and did some from scratch for 3E. The levels gained might be too high, especially on the ability score enhancements. I was mostly trying to map the bonuses to dead character levels, which is most of the odd levels.
Weapon, armor, and shield enhancements:
[sblock]Enhancements: Gained as a bonus to hit and damage with any weapon, as well as any weapon-like spell, spell-like, or Su ability. Damage is of the same type as the attack source – physical, fire, nonlethal, and so on… If the ability does damage other than hp damage, the enhancement damage is negative energy damage. If the ability does not do damage of any sort, no bonus damage is gained. For armor and shields, the enhancement adds to AC. A +1 bonus is gained at level 3, and then increases by 1 at every 4 levels thereafter, as shown below:
Level 1-2: No bonus
Level 3-6: +1
Level 7-10: +2
Level 11-14: +3
Level 15-18: +4
Level 19-22: +5
Level 23-26: +6
Effect on Magic Item Creation:
Craft Magic Arms and Armor can only be used to imbue items with special properties. To enhance a weapon, armor, or shield magically for the first time requires an additional cost of 2000 gp. Up to +10 equivalent in special properties may be added to the weapon or armor/shield (Epic feats allow this limit to be overcome).
Available as a special +1 market price modifier, creators may add the “Mastery” property once to a weapon or armor/shield. This increases the effective enhancement bonus of anyone who wields it by +1. This property allows those who wish to designate a certain item as above and beyond the rest to do so mechanically. Mastery requires the creator know Greater Magic Weapon if used on a weapon, or Magic Vestment to apply it to armor/shield.
Cold Iron weapons retain their resistance to magical enhancement, adding an additional 2000 gp to the cost of first magically enhancing it (another way to look at it is that cold iron costs twice as much, and is twice as difficult, to alter with magic).
Effect on Feats and Class features that allow a character to enhance an item (Kensai, Item Familiar feat, etc...):
In general, this houserule does not affect such abilities. A Kensai can still enhance his signature weapon as normal, for example. Being able to get a more powerful weapon or piece of armor sooner than others is one of the perks of having such a class feature or feat, and in most cases such abilities involve a deeper connection between creator and item than for magic item creation that spellcasters practice.
Effect on Vow of Poverty: To be determined (For what it’s worth, I’m in the “VoP is underpowered” camp, so it most certainly will need some boosts with such houserules).[/sblock]
Should armor and shields automatically improve, or just offense? I know not just anyone can use a shield (well...everyone except monks can, really), but giving freebie bonus AC with it in particular rubs me the wrong way. Would some sort of defense bonus based on BAB (1/2 your BAB? 1-for-1 ratio with BAB?) be better?
Abitlity score enhancement:
[sblock]Ability score enhancement: Players can choose one of the following progressions for what best suits their PC.
Progression I – Advances a single score the fastest, with a secondary keeping close pace. Best for spellcasters and other single or double ability dependent classes.
Level 5: +2/+2
Level 9: +4/+2
Level 13: +4/+4/+2
Level 17: +6/+4/+4
Level 21: +6/+4/+4/+2
Level 25: +8/+6/+4/+2/+2
Progression II – Advances several scores at the expense of none reaching +6 pre-epic. Best for multiple ability dependent classes like Bard, Monk, and Rogue.
Level 5: +2/+2
Level 9: +2/+2/+2
Level 13: +4/+4/+2
Level 17: +4/+4/+2/+2
Level 21: +4/+4/+4/+2/+2
Level 25: +6/+6/+4/+4/+2/+2[/sblock]
I was more worried about balancing the progressions against each other than I was about any sort of consistent rate you could carry on from and expand for deep into epic levels. Mostly because not many people will ever play that far anyway.
Ah well, if nothing else, killed some time for me.
Weapon, armor, and shield enhancements:
[sblock]Enhancements: Gained as a bonus to hit and damage with any weapon, as well as any weapon-like spell, spell-like, or Su ability. Damage is of the same type as the attack source – physical, fire, nonlethal, and so on… If the ability does damage other than hp damage, the enhancement damage is negative energy damage. If the ability does not do damage of any sort, no bonus damage is gained. For armor and shields, the enhancement adds to AC. A +1 bonus is gained at level 3, and then increases by 1 at every 4 levels thereafter, as shown below:
Level 1-2: No bonus
Level 3-6: +1
Level 7-10: +2
Level 11-14: +3
Level 15-18: +4
Level 19-22: +5
Level 23-26: +6
Effect on Magic Item Creation:
Craft Magic Arms and Armor can only be used to imbue items with special properties. To enhance a weapon, armor, or shield magically for the first time requires an additional cost of 2000 gp. Up to +10 equivalent in special properties may be added to the weapon or armor/shield (Epic feats allow this limit to be overcome).
Available as a special +1 market price modifier, creators may add the “Mastery” property once to a weapon or armor/shield. This increases the effective enhancement bonus of anyone who wields it by +1. This property allows those who wish to designate a certain item as above and beyond the rest to do so mechanically. Mastery requires the creator know Greater Magic Weapon if used on a weapon, or Magic Vestment to apply it to armor/shield.
Cold Iron weapons retain their resistance to magical enhancement, adding an additional 2000 gp to the cost of first magically enhancing it (another way to look at it is that cold iron costs twice as much, and is twice as difficult, to alter with magic).
Effect on Feats and Class features that allow a character to enhance an item (Kensai, Item Familiar feat, etc...):
In general, this houserule does not affect such abilities. A Kensai can still enhance his signature weapon as normal, for example. Being able to get a more powerful weapon or piece of armor sooner than others is one of the perks of having such a class feature or feat, and in most cases such abilities involve a deeper connection between creator and item than for magic item creation that spellcasters practice.
Effect on Vow of Poverty: To be determined (For what it’s worth, I’m in the “VoP is underpowered” camp, so it most certainly will need some boosts with such houserules).[/sblock]
Should armor and shields automatically improve, or just offense? I know not just anyone can use a shield (well...everyone except monks can, really), but giving freebie bonus AC with it in particular rubs me the wrong way. Would some sort of defense bonus based on BAB (1/2 your BAB? 1-for-1 ratio with BAB?) be better?
Abitlity score enhancement:
[sblock]Ability score enhancement: Players can choose one of the following progressions for what best suits their PC.
Progression I – Advances a single score the fastest, with a secondary keeping close pace. Best for spellcasters and other single or double ability dependent classes.
Level 5: +2/+2
Level 9: +4/+2
Level 13: +4/+4/+2
Level 17: +6/+4/+4
Level 21: +6/+4/+4/+2
Level 25: +8/+6/+4/+2/+2
Progression II – Advances several scores at the expense of none reaching +6 pre-epic. Best for multiple ability dependent classes like Bard, Monk, and Rogue.
Level 5: +2/+2
Level 9: +2/+2/+2
Level 13: +4/+4/+2
Level 17: +4/+4/+2/+2
Level 21: +4/+4/+4/+2/+2
Level 25: +6/+6/+4/+4/+2/+2[/sblock]
I was more worried about balancing the progressions against each other than I was about any sort of consistent rate you could carry on from and expand for deep into epic levels. Mostly because not many people will ever play that far anyway.
Ah well, if nothing else, killed some time for me.
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