What's your objection to splat books?

[Janx]

I think the most "objective" problem with splatbooks is the powercreep/imbalance issue that happens as ever more content is released that doesn't play well with the older content.

when the core rules has 5 classes and 100 skills and underwent a year of development, that's probably solid.

When you've grown the set of classes to 50 and 1000 skills by way of splatbooks, you've likely not tested every meaningful combination.

Oops.

 

[Nergal Pendragon]

About 15 months ago the Pathfinder Modules line changed from 32-page bi-monthly adventures to 64-page quarterly ones. This contrasts with Planet Stories, which was simply discontinued.

As I said, they either retire or revise their offerings, as appropriate.

XP for having a good point. What I was saying fell apart anyway.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

My primary objection is a bit different than most.

I like to make a world my own, and I like to use what I pay for. That essentially means that when I'm assimilating a new game and setting I'm working on understanding it as well as possible and making whatever (hopefully minor) changes I need to smooth out what I consider rough spots (in crunch or fluff). After these minor changes I feel like the world is "mine," and it exists in my imagination space. But I do not like to pay someone to make me something and then redo it myself because I feel the need to make major changes.

Now I have a world that I understand, that is as close to by the book as possible, and that is alive in my imagination. I can tell stories and share that imagination environment with my players. They can be knights and assassins, vampires, aliens, whatever. They can visit the Grand Kingdom of Kingsley or the Assassin's Belt in the Vampire Nebula. The books have told me about all of those things. I add characters and stories and take my players there.

Now they put out a new book. The Completely New Book of Not-What-You-Expected Knights of Kingsley. I now find out that the Grand Kingdom of Kingsley has been given an entirely different cultural feel than the core rulebook implied. And my knights are no longer appropriately statted out, because while the initial book only had the Warrior class, which you could envision as any sort of warrior, this new book has the Knight class--what your character always should have been. And of course, the difference is significant enough that you are thinking, "wow, I sure wish I was knight back in that last adventure!" So now all affected characters need to be rebuilt, unless their backstory justifies them not having the class they should have had all along.

Let's say you were playing Changeling the Dreaming and your character concept was a leprechaun. The closest option in the book is a boggan (if I'm remembering correctly). So leprechauns are apparently a type of Boggan, and that's how your group decides to handle it...until they put out a splat-book with the clurichaun--the real leprechaun. Well dang. Now I have this new splat-book with a lot of material I want to use, but it invalidates continuity with the story so far.

Either I retcon my game, which can be a hassle that impacts believability, or I just don't use the material I paid for. Except, I thought I paid for a world already. I've already internalized this world and brought it into my imagination, and now they are telling me I did it wrong, and it's up to me to put extra effort into fixing it.

And I know this may sound weird, but I kind of like to be on the same page with people when we are discussing the same thing. You know how some people get really frustrated when superhero movies screw up how they envision a superhero? Why can't they just watch other movies that present a view they like better? Why waste time complaining that this director didn't do it exactly the way they like? There are still all the older movies available, and chances are someone else will do it in a way they'll like better in the next 10 years anyway. Well, I assume it's because the shared world has been violated in their mind.

TL;DR

I hate being forced to retcon my game to assimilate or acknowledge new material.

 

[Zhaleskra]

Even after reading the whole thread I still don't see where "I don't want to have to buy blank optional book" should outrank those of us who say, "I want to buy blank optional book"

If you don't want splatbooks, let them make them and don't buy them and let those of us who do, buy them

No one is saying people aren't allowed to buy splatbooks, what we have objections to are "company Y released book Z, and I like class/race/feat A and want to use it in your game, and you have to allow it because it's official." While I never have actually had that happen, I do see a lot of complaints about that exact thing here.

 

[Alzrius]

My problem with splatbooks isn't with regards to the existence of the books themselves; I think most people are just fine with the existence of books that they don't like and don't want to buy (though to be fair, there are plenty of people out there who do seem to hate the thought of the things they don't like so much as existing).

Rather, my problem is that splatbooks put the lie to what I feel is the inherent promise of a role-playing game: that you can be anything.

Now, admittedly, this promise often comes with unspoken caveats, such as "...within the context of this setting that we're designing for," or "...within a certain scope of power that the game is built to handle." That said, there's still an expectation in a lot of games - particularly where there's an understanding that the game is meant to be universal in scope (which is what D&D has been for quite some time now) - that picking up the game will give you everything you need to play whatever sort of game (and, more specifically, whatever sort of character) you want.

Except then we find out that that's not true. The very existence of a supplement with additional rules carries the implication that the options it presents aren't to be found within the basic rules, and that we need to pick up this new book to fulfill the promise of being able to do truly anything in the game.

...until the next book comes out, that is.

It doesn't take long to realize when this becomes a cycle. The spectre of "this time, you'll have all the options" is a carrot that we're paying for to get yanked out of reach again and again and again. Worse, it's not hard to realize that the companies that produce these materials are incentivized to make sure that they never live up to that promise, since that would cut off an obvious revenue stream.

Splatbooks are the DLC of table-top role-playing games, and the objections that they draw are the same as the objections to those. People don't see them as new options to expand a game that's already complete; but as unending additions to an incomplete game that should have been complete out of the box.

 

[dream66_]

No one is saying people aren't allowed to buy splatbooks, what we have objections to are "company Y released book Z, and I like class/race/feat A and want to use it in your game, and you have to allow it because it's official." While I never have actually had that happen, I do see a lot of complaints about that exact thing here.

When people are demanding that the company not produce more than 2 a year, then yes they are not allowing me to buy them, I can't buy what's not printed.

 

[Hyper-Man]

I doubt it stems from any conscious adoption of Magic's sale's model. RPGs were coming out with supplements when Magic was just a gleam in Richard Garfield's eye.

What I am referring to is the forced obsolescence built into Magic:TG's sales model. If I recall correctly, they only officially sponsor tournaments using the last 2 releases of cards. If a player wants to participate in those tournaments they must obtain new cards every so often. While RPG's have been releasing supplements for quite some time I don't think they've been designed to be 'necessary' for that long of a time. It's a great sales model for the companies that use it. HERO doesn't and where did it get them? Their aforementioned Ultimate Series of books had very little in the way of new rules, rather they gave more extensive 'how to use the existing toolkit to do this' advise.

 

[MichaelSomething]

When people are demanding that the company not produce more than 2 a year, then yes they are not allowing me to buy them, I can't buy what's not printed.

When I make my own RPG, I'm gonna have a Patreon for it. The highest milestone will be that no splatbooks are made...

 

[Sword of Spirit]

My problem with splatbooks isn't with regards to the existence of the books themselves; I think most people are just fine with the existence of books that they don't like and don't want to buy (though to be fair, there are plenty of people out there who do seem to hate the thought of the things they don't like so much as existing).

Rather, my problem is that splatbooks put the lie to what I feel is the inherent promise of a role-playing game: that you can be anything.

Now, admittedly, this promise often comes with unspoken caveats, such as "...within the context of this setting that we're designing for," or "...within a certain scope of power that the game is built to handle." That said, there's still an expectation in a lot of games - particularly where there's an understanding that the game is meant to be universal in scope (which is what D&D has been for quite some time now) - that picking up the game will give you everything you need to play whatever sort of game (and, more specifically, whatever sort of character) you want.

Except then we find out that that's not true. The very existence of a supplement with additional rules carries the implication that the options it presents aren't to be found within the basic rules, and that we need to pick up this new book to fulfill the promise of being able to do truly anything in the game.

...until the next book comes out, that is.

It doesn't take long to realize when this becomes a cycle. The spectre of "this time, you'll have all the options" is a carrot that we're paying for to get yanked out of reach again and again and again. Worse, it's not hard to realize that the companies that produce these materials are incentivized to make sure that they never live up to that promise, since that would cut off an obvious revenue stream.

Splatbooks are the DLC of table-top role-playing games, and the objections that they draw are the same as the objections to those. People don't see them as new options to expand a game that's already complete; but as unending additions to an incomplete game that should have been complete out of the box.

You just said most of what I was trying to say better than I did.