What's your opinion of GURPS?

[Storm Raven]

Even worse, there are some feats which LIMIT what a character can do without those feats! That is what I was referring to above. For example, a regular chracter cannot hamstring an opponent if he doesn't have the appropriate feat.

Sure you can, just score a critical hit and do enough damage to stagger your foe.

Or you cannot toss sand in someone's eyes because you don't have Dirty Fighting .

Sure you can. That isn't what the Dirty Fighting feat is at all anyway.

You cannot jump back after an attack unless you have Spring Attack.

Sure you can, you will just provoke an attack of opportunity for doing so.

 

[mmu1]

Even worse, there are some feats which LIMIT what a character can do without those feats! That is what I was referring to above. For example, a regular chracter cannot hamstring an opponent if he doesn't have the appropriate feat. Or you cannot toss sand in someone's eyes because you don't have Dirty Fighting . You cannot jump back after an attack unless you have Spring Attack. In Gurps, all of those would be acceptable maneuvers (with the possible exception of Spring Attack - because movement is much more fine-grained in GURPS), provided you make the attack penalties and/or some additional skill checks (with a high Acrobatics check, I might allow a Spring Attack type move even in GURPS).

Most of your complaint has less to do with feats being badly implemented than with the fact that at its basis, D&D has a very abstract combat system without hit locations.

Which is fine, in my opinion, because as soon as you have a system that does implement a realistic hit-location system (in other words, one that isn't prohibitively difficult) it tends to succumb to the "Called shot to the nuts!" syndrome - people will always go for the sand in the face / knee in the groin / dagger in the eye shortcut in hope of instantly disabling someone.

Feats allow more control over that sort of thing, and it works fine for D&D.

Also, as Storm Raven points out, you certainly can do some of the things you mention or allude to - Sneak Attack and Bluff, anyone? Anyone can take Rogue levels, anyone can try a Bluff check...

 

[kengar]

people will always go for the sand in the face / knee in the groin / dagger in the eye shortcut in hope of instantly disabling someone.

Actually, in most games I've played where hit location, etc. was commonly used, this only happened once in a great while. The penalties for hitting the vitals, etc. were just too great to make worth trying all the time. Once in while, it made sense when the opponent was simply too tough to beat without going for weak spots or the quick K-O, but that makes sense to me.

It's sort of like in Raiders of the Lost Ark; when Indy squares off against the big guy in black with the falchion. He knows he ain't gonna take this guy out hand to hand, so he just shoots him.

Not to keep harping on Savage Worlds, but it does a great job of balancing this in game mechanics. The options are there to take called shots, use tricks and manuevers, etc. as well as just roll your attack and see what happens. But the penalties and modifiers make it a balanced, calculated risk instead of a "Why wouldn't you make every attack a called shot to the head?" situation.

 

[Conaill]

> For example, a regular chracter cannot
> hamstring an opponent if he doesn't have the
> appropriate feat.

Sure you can, just score a critical hit and do enough damage to stagger your foe.[/b]

Nuh-uh. The Hamstring feat from - I think - Song and Silence allows you to trade some damage for reducing the opponent's speed. It's an actual called shot to the hamstrings, intended to cripple the victim. Likewise, Arterial Strike is a called shot to strike major artories...

> Or you cannot toss sand in someone's
> eyes because you don't have Dirty Fighting .

Sure you can. That isn't what the Dirty Fighting feat is at all anyway.

Maybe I wasn't using the correct feat name. I know there is one where the "flavor text" specifically mentions throwing sand in the opponent's eyes. Anyone else that can tell me the name of this feat?

> You cannot jump back after an attack
> unless you have Spring Attack.

Sure you can, you will just provoke an attack of opportunity for doing so.

Ah, but you cannot move forward, attack, then move back - which is what I meant. I figured that would be clear from the context. Guess not...

 

[Numion]

Ah, but you cannot move forward, attack, then move back - which is what I meant. I figured that would be clear from the context. Guess not...

Yes you can, to pick a nit. It just happens on the next round

 

[mmu1]

Actually, in most games I've played where hit location, etc. was commonly used, this only happened once in a great while. The penalties for hitting the vitals, etc. were just too great to make worth trying all the time. Once in while, it made sense when the opponent was simply too tough to beat without going for weak spots or the quick K-O, but that makes sense to me.

That's because in many games, the penalties are very high.

In GURPS, on the other hand, you can easily make a 100 point character that'll be able to shoot people in the head or vitals without even trying hard. (at normal handgun ranges, anyway)

Vitals are, what, -3 to hit? With a 13 dex, a +2 from INT and a few points in Firearms, you can easily have a 17 in Firearms. With a modern gun with a low Snap Shot value, your chances of making the shot are pretty damn good.

 

[WizarDru]

Vitals are, what, -3 to hit? With a 13 dex, a +2 from INT and a few points in Firearms, you can easily have a 17 in Firearms. With a modern gun with a low Snap Shot value, your chances of making the shot are pretty damn good.

Well, yes, that's true. If no one's moving, the target isn't wearing body armor, has average reflexes and isn't too distant. But in a combat where people may both be running, the person hasn't taken time to aim, the other person is swift or partally under-cover...you're not a guaranteed shot.

Mind you, this covers reality fairly well, in that regard. A modern handgun is a marvel of ease-of-use. Now, getting off a second shot is a little more difficult, depending on the gun and all the factors above.

All of which is what GURPS is trying to realistically model. That's not D&D's reality, of course, or even d20 modern (or James Bond or Spycraft, for that matter).

 

[Lord Rasputin]

Gurps has silly things all of it's own. Due to blow-through rules you can't kill someone with a single bullet to the chest. It'll blow through and leave target at zero health.

Realistic indeed. Just don't try it at home

Ah ... you missed it. Bleeding. Realistic.

 

[Lord Rasputin]

That's because in many games, the penalties are very high.

In GURPS, on the other hand, you can easily make a 100 point character that'll be able to shoot people in the head or vitals without even trying hard. (at normal handgun ranges, anyway)

Vitals are, what, -3 to hit? With a 13 dex, a +2 from INT and a few points in Firearms, you can easily have a 17 in Firearms. With a modern gun with a low Snap Shot value, your chances of making the shot are pretty damn good.

I'll be honest, I've always houseruled the IQ bonus to Guns to be a little less right off the bat. I like the GULLIVER add-on when it is simpler, and there's a table that's PG-rated for these kind of bonuses. Also, I don't let you have that bonus from DX default, though in an RPG with Guns, few ever use that default ...

Anyhoo ... DX 13, IQ 12, straight out of the Basic Set. If I put 8 points in Guns (the breakpoint), I'd have Guns (whatever, let's say, LtAuto)/TL7 (or whatever) at 18. Almost always hit, right?

Not quite.

First of all, if you don't aim, you don't gain the Acc bonus. Well, I didn't add it above. Moving on ...

Next, you start taking penalties for Range (and Speed too, don't forget) very quickly in GURPS. Someone even 10 yards across the room is at -4, more if he's moving quickly. That could drop you below your SS number, BTW, taking that out of the equation and forcing you to aim and lose a turn.

Then, Recoil. Fire that Desert Eagle, and you have Rcl -3 for each shot beyond the first, and to stop it from adding up, you need to stop and aim. And, if you're forced to use one hand only, it's doubled (I had a spirit gnoshing on my thug's arm a few weeks ago).

One aimed shot, easy to hit? Yeah. Really, anyone could shoot dead someone a few feet away with little training. Guns are feared for good reason. But always? Your GM isn't applying penalties right. The gun master level is somewhere above 21 -- and the above character needs to spend another 24 points (that's 4800 hours of training, or 8 adventures worth of reward) just to reach 21.

 

[mmu1]

Anyhoo ... DX 13, IQ 12, straight out of the Basic Set. If I put 8 points in Guns (the breakpoint), I'd have Guns (whatever, let's say, LtAuto)/TL7 (or whatever) at 18. Almost always hit, right?

Not quite.

Fine, except that this Dex 13 character was meant as an example of a relatively low-end character with a good chance of making a shot against the vitals. (By which I definitely do not mean 90% of the time, or something silly like that - a, say, 50% chance of making a shot that'll stop someone dead is significant enough. Probably should have made that clear.)
Obviously, if someone is 10 yards away and sprinting, things change quite a bit - but it's not like we're trying to be unfair to win an argument and assuming he's just going to blast away like crazy every 1-second round with a high-recoil piece of crap like a Desert Eagle, are we?

You can easily make a starting 100 point gunman with 15 DEX, 12 Int and 8 points in the relevant firearms skill with a handgun with a Snap Shot value of 10 and Recoil of 1 that can take up to 6 points of penalties and still be able to make two shots per round at someone's vitals without going below his Snap Shot number (the second one going up to -7) for around 60% and 50% chances to hit, or an 80% chance of hitting at least once.

Not that I dislike GURPS, or anything, by the way...