Wheel of Time?

[papastebu]

Sure. And they're interesting to read, since I'm always curious to see how other readers see the same subject.

This is gratifying. Thanks. My primary reason for posting on any forum is an attempt to connect with like-minded people on subjects that matter to me.

You know, the one thing I'd never accuse Jordan of is doing the "man in a dress" syndrome, which afflicts too many male writers (and not just in fantasy). I usually find his women very distinct from his men. And he does write a lot of strong women, but unfortunately, for me that's mainly because he has a similar template for them. They're all shrews

Rethinking the statement, the aggressiveness was what I was pointing to, but I think the only one who was a "shrew" was Nynaeve. Even she has her femininity, though, so I may have been trowel-handed on that opinion. I like the character, except when she's at her nastiest. Then I wish Birgitte would hand her her @$$ as a hat.

Agreed. I think that's one of the big factors in his women seeming two-dimensional and a little too similar across the board to me. I think he actually does a better job writing female characters when they're not interacting with men, since he's more likely to treat them in a rounded fashion then and not have them descend into just filling one side in the battle of the sexes.

Yeop. This is evident in a lot of Nynaeve's interactions with Thom and Jiulin, that I've observed, and I'm sure that it's true elsewhere, as well. The poor woman seems to think that it's her against the world.

That's quite possibly the case. Personally, that's not true of the women I know and have known. Also I've always found it just as easy to understand and communicate with women as men (ironically, a big reason being that I essentially ignore gender when dealing with people, just as I ignore race, age, etc.), so for me his manner of writing them seems even weaker than it might for some others.

You are a fortunate man. Ignoring race, age, and the like goes as far as respect does with me, though. If I am getting it, I am giving it, generally based on the individual, but sometimes based on a person's age or gender, given that there is a large gap in either direction for the former, and the other is a woman or girl, for the latter. There is a way to be respectful of those more experienced and still let them know you're angry. The same can be said of respect toward women. Race as a criteria for anger or specific respect does not exist for me, however, and so I default to age and gender to know how to act.

Well, you want a job done right...

I've always been a "do it yourself-er".

 

[papastebu]

I must say that I understand how the miscommunication issues could get on people's nerves, but maybe growing up watching Latin American Telenovelas has added to my tolerance That is such a standard trope, that you almost start enjoying the misunderstanding's after a while. "If only he would say...:" Maybe it's a cultural thing though.

Having never seen one, I would not know, but the insight is interesting.

In Jordan's defense, mistrust is a big part of his world. With an active force for evil able to infiltrate anywere, trust is very lacking. Rand, Mat and Perrin know that just about anybody can be a Darkfriend. Now, certainly they should probably trust each other more, but a) I think Rand's paranoia is definitely part of his madness; He trusts Min totally though, since she is 100% loyal to him. In his eyes everybody else has an agenda b) Matt is very leery of all power weilders, and really stopped trusting Rand in book 2, c) Perrin has made it clear that his only true loyalty is to his wife. And those are the two guys Rand "knows" he can trust. Besides, he was schooled by Moraine, who I think could be a poster child for information control based on "Need to know".

It's very strange, but I had not once looked at it from this angle. The Dark One is much more visibly active than the Creator in the series, and, honestly, past a certain point, I don't see how Rand is trusting of anyone at all. I have often thought that Rand's madness simply took a less volatile form, yet had been there all along.

But there is another point worth talking about. Female arrogance is a one of the central themes in the book (is that the right literary term BTW? My literary discussion classes are 15 years behind me and in another language). These women live 5-8 times longer than anybody else, have supernatural power that makes them demigods, and haven't had any serious competition in the last 3,000 years. If that doesn't breed arrogance, I'm not sure what will. IMO, these women should have been even more aloof and arrogant than even he portrays them, but then it would be impossible to empathize with them in any way.

Again, I didn't look that deeply. Personal motivations and reasons, sure, but not anything like that. Bravo!

BTW, not everyone is a shrew, though I agree a majority of them are. Elayne started pretty relaxed in book 1, but a little white tower goes a long way apparently. My favorite Aes Sedai after Moraine is Verin, who definitely isn't a shrew, IMO. Moraine isn't a shrew either, though she is the most manipulative woman ever born apparently

Cairhienen Aes Sedai?

 

[reanjr]

I wasn't aware of that.

It was too long to economically be released as one book. From what I recall, book binding or paper or something was expensive at the time.

 

[GSHamster]

I always loved the WoT, and loved how long it was. Like a comic book, it would keep coming out and continuing the story of Rand and Mat and Perrin.

I've never understood people's dislike of the length of the series. Would these people like to see X-Men or Spider-Man "wrap up the story" and end? I know I sure as hell wouldn't.

RJ will be missed.

Endings are important. Things need to end, before you can really judge them. Endings provide closure and completeness. They give meaning to what has gone before. Think of all the movies with great endings, or those with absolutely horrid endings.

Lord of the Rings is a very different book because of its ending. What happens on Mount Doom is pivotal to the story, and makes the rest of book better. What would Casablanca be without its ending? A Shakespearean play without the final act?

Imo, this is a weakness of most comic books. The best comic books are those which end, which tell a complete story. Watchmen and Sandman, for example.

The problem with Robert Jordan was that he could not end things. Even plotlines within the series that should have ended (Faile/Perrin) kept on going.

And I'm saying that as someone who liked the series, who thought the idea of a hero who didn't moan about his fate, but went out and prepared for the final battle by conquering the known world was an amazing breath of fresh air.

 

[iwatt]

Again, I didn't look that deeply. Personal motivations and reasons, sure, but not anything like that. Bravo!

Heh, thanx. It's something I thought of on a previous discussion over the mention of the increased reference to Aes Sedai homosexuality* in the latter books: what is the real effect of actually been an incontrovertibly superior but small minority. What would actually happen would probably be so politically incorrect that no publisher would dare print it though IMO, the Children of the Light are only a pale image of the equivalent organization that would develop in our world in those circumstances. And the Aes Sedai would be even more supercilious and arrogant.


* The way I see it, it's similar to the Spartan men. I'm no scholar, but I understand that homosexuality was prevalent in Sparta.

 

[qstor]

I liked the first three books a lot. After having read on the boards here about frustration of people reading the series, I got bogged down. I just got book six. Hopefully I can finish the rest of the series.

God rest RJ.

Mike