When Adventure Designers Cheat

[Celebrim]

Put me down for "HULK SMASH". Part of the reason I buy almost no third party material (outside of Paizo) is the tendency to play too fast and loose with the rules for my taste.

People keep saying this and I have no idea what they mean by it.

What is an example of playing fast and loose with the rules? Are you suggesting that third parties play faster and looser with the rules than WotC does in its own products? I can't see how you'd think that.

I think the disagreement I have with the notion of what people in this thread have with cheating comes down to two things:

1) Ultimately, I don't think that a DM or designer can 'cheat'. He isn't forbidden by the rules from doing anything. That isn't to say that I think everything is necessarily good design, but there isn't much of anything which can't be justified by the circumstances of the game. When I think of 'cheating' by a DM, I think of problems like a DM favoring an NPC and giving it all sorts of advantages he would not make available to a PC in the same circumstance. I don't think of unbreakable doors, which may or may not be good design, but they certainly aren't 'cheating'.
2) My impression of the rules is that anything which is not expressly forbidden is permitted. Too many people in this thread have the opinion that anything which is not expressly in the rules is forbidden.

Let's looks at the 'unbreakable door' case that's causing such a fuss. Suppose the party tries to break down the door, and I have them roll a Knowledge(Arcane) skill check, and then tell them, "Upon observing the door you realize its made of Obdurium - the pure primal substance of the universe. Not even Gods can break Obdurium." Am I cheating? No, I might well be justified in saying that. There is no reason I can't introduce Obdurium into a campaign. The real question is how good is my reason for having an Obdurium door? If even the gods can't break it, who is it that shaped the stuff into a door? If we are dealing with an abode created by anything less than the elder creation god, then having a door made of Obdurium is cheesy and breaks the internal logic of the gameworld and breaks immersion. If we are on the other hand dealing with a door that has been sealed since the creation of the universe by the elder creator diety, then I expect the appropriate response from the PC's to be, "Ooooooooooh", and maybe to back away slowly, and not an out of game challenge that there is no such thing as Obdurium adn I'm cheating.

 

[Tarek]

Is there a real, reasonable story reason for the so-called 'rule-breaking' effect/object?

If so, I don't have a problem with it.

If not, then I do have a problem with it.

In the case of the Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun, there's a very very good reason that there's an area of impossible supernatural chill; Tharizdun is the god of Entropy, and there's a fragment of his existence somewhere in that area.

This is, of course, a great place to put the cult's treasure, but in order to place the stuff down there and not incidentally hold the occasional ritual in this place, the mortal worshippers had to have some way of protecting themselves; thus, the robes.

 

[Slife]

If we are on the other hand dealing with a door that has been sealed since the creation of the universe by the elder creator diety, then I expect the appropriate response from the PC's to be, "Ooooooooooh", and maybe to back away slowly, and not an out of game challenge that there is no such thing as Obdurium adn I'm cheating.

No. The appropriate response on the PC's part is "Oooooooh," and then start trying to break the wall so they can take the door. Maybe use it as a tower shield or something, or sell it for a ridiculous amount of money.

 

[hamishspence]

Munchkin games had somthing to say on this:

Monte Cargo:
DM: "You are in a 10 by 10 foot room with 1 door and 1 open doorway"
P: "I try the door"
DM: "its locked"
P: "I try to pick it"
DM: "It's still locked"
P:"I have OL 23, Skill focus open lock, masterwork lockpicks, and i'm taking 20"
DM: "you can't pick the lock"
P: "I chop down the door"
DM: "behind it is stone wall"
P:"I back off and fireball the stone"
DM:"No effect. A mysterious force draws you through the doorway, There are 3 orcs in the next room. Roll Init"

Yes, there are published adventures like this. Don't play them!

While this can be true, a wise DM should not feel too straitjacketed by the adventure. The DM should not design adventures solely to nerf a players powers.

Adventures with special rules: Age of Worms: boosts from the soul parts of dead NPC: this is really a symptom of Too Hard Challenge Syndrome: players are in WAY over their heads and need boosts to keep them alive. 21st level heroes vs CR 30+ Kyuss (BEFORE divine powers) = Majorly out of depth.

 

[Celebrim]

Monte Cargo:
DM: "You are in a 10 by 10 foot room with 1 door and 1 open doorway"
P: "I try the door"
DM: "its locked"
P: "I try to pick it"
DM: "It's still locked"
P:"I have OL 23, Skill focus open lock, masterwork lockpicks, and i'm taking 20"
DM: "you can't pick the lock"
P: "I chop down the door"
DM: "behind it is stone wall"
P:"I back off and fireball the stone..."

DM: You cast fireball at the door??? Ok, the room fills with fire to overflowing, you take 5d6 damage, but may roll a saving throw vs spells to take half damage.
P: That's not fair. * Dice clatter * An 18!
DM: Don't pick the dice before I can look at it! That didn't look like an 18 from here!
P: You're mean. I don't want to play any more.
DM: Fine, you're dead anyway. I've been tracking your hitpoints and you should have died when you fell through the pit trap into this room, but you've been failing to record damage and lying about how much you have remaining. You're already at -12 hitpoints by my calculations, and I'm sick and tired of having you trying to make me explain to you the player why every single thing happens out character, I'm sick of you breaking character, I'm sick of your whining, metagaming, rules lawyering, and cheating. Here's the solution to escaping from the Donjon though, just so you know. It was a false door. The lock mechanism was welded in place, and it was just built into the wall. If you'd checked for traps you might have noticed that, or if you'd searched the hinges you would have realized that they were false. And why didn't you check the room for secret doors? Why must the solution to everything either be a spell or something utterly obvious? You are in the cunning lair of the Naughty Sorceress. What do you think this is, a children's game?
P: Waaaaa! I'm going to tell my mommy on you.

 

[Rothe]

Nothing creative about saying, “fly, levitate, jump, dimension door, blink and teleport spells will not work in this room.” Or the slippery stuff on the floor, “cannot be affected by any force, magical or otherwise.” Or the copper plates forming the trap, “cannot be damaged or removed.” Or the door will close even if spiked open, and *nothing* will open the door other than the special key held in one of the globes. Or the doors to the room cannot be affected in anyway, magical or mundane. Or that “NOTHING CAN STOP THE DOORS FROM CLOSING IN 5 ROUNDS” (caps in the original text). Or a ring is coated in contact poison “die, no save.”

I don’t find these creative or fun. I find them designer fiat and “cheating”.

“The character is dead, and cannot be brought back to life, including through the use of a wish.”

Quasqueton

QFT It becomes a game of guess what I'm thinking, and designer fiat to railroad character's down a narrow track of solutions to problems.

 

[Set]

In the case of the Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun, there's a very very good reason that there's an area of impossible supernatural chill; Tharizdun is the god of Entropy, and there's a fragment of his existence somewhere in that area.

Yeah, but Entropy isn't cold. It's hot.

In any event, if the robes protected from a supernatural effect, that available spells would not protect against, they would presumably be in some way, yanno, *supernatural.*

I'm completely against most such 'cheating.' There are *thousands* of spells, monsters, etc. already present in the game, and any given effect I'd want to use to provide a challenge has a dozen or more ways to accomplish it *within the rules.* So something like, 'this door closes in 5 rounds and no force, not even the gods, can stop it or open it, unless you have the key from room 24b, OMG11ownzor!' is just lame. It's just pure laziness, and even railroading, IMO, for the writer to not bother to come up with either an in-game RAW-compliant solution, or to provide something more than 'teleport and divination spells would short-circuit the module, so instead of using Dimensional Anchor or Obscure Alignment spells, already in-game, I've just made all of these spells not work, period. Your Diviner can just bite me, loser, and don't play a Conjuror either, 'cause Summoning effects don't work in my dungeon either, fanboy!'

It doesn't encourage players to 'think outside the box.' It *prevents* them from thinking ouside the box, and utilizing *any* of the games actual resolution systems to accomplish the task.

If you don't want the task accomplished by any actual D&D mechanism, here's a brilliant idea. Don't play D&D.

 

[Lanefan]

Yeah, but Entropy isn't cold. It's hot.

In any event, if the robes protected from a supernatural effect, that available spells would not protect against, they would presumably be in some way, yanno, *supernatural.*

Why? Why not just ordinary robes, blessed by the deity?

I'm completely against most such 'cheating.' There are *thousands* of spells, monsters, etc. already present in the game, and any given effect I'd want to use to provide a challenge has a dozen or more ways to accomplish it *within the rules.* So something like, 'this door closes in 5 rounds and no force, not even the gods, can stop it or open it, unless you have the key from room 24b, OMG11ownzor!' is just lame. It's just pure laziness, and even railroading, IMO, for the writer to not bother to come up with either an in-game RAW-compliant solution, or to provide something more than 'teleport and divination spells would short-circuit the module, so instead of using Dimensional Anchor or Obscure Alignment spells, already in-game, I've just made all of these spells not work, period. Your Diviner can just bite me, loser, and don't play a Conjuror either, 'cause Summoning effects don't work in my dungeon either, fanboy!'

It doesn't encourage players to 'think outside the box.' It *prevents* them from thinking ouside the box, and utilizing *any* of the games actual resolution systems to accomplish the task.

The point is to try and generate a situation that forces a different solution than the obvious, and in fact makes the obvious either ineffective or even counter-effective. One of the old 1e/2e tricks-and-traps books I have has such a thing: a room where the floor is a number (about 50, I think) of square tiles; 2 rounds after anyone enters the room the only obvious door (the one you came in through) slams shut and the ceiling starts coming down. At the same time, several scattered floor tiles disappear and are replaced with gouts of fire. Nothing can stop the ceiling's fall, and unless you're standing right next to the door you won't be able to open it as the lowering ceiling gets in the way (this cuts off the obvious escape). One round later, everything in the room is pulp. (the designer presented a huge long expose of how this worked both mechanically and magically, which I didn't bother reading)

The non-intuitive escape: stand in a fire. The fires, and the square of "ceiling" above each one, are illusions...but if you take the time to disbelieve you'll be squashed, you have to make a leap of faith.

I used this trap against a party once. They had someone strong enough to kick the door outwards, so a couple escaped that way; one got divine intervention (from Tharizdun, if you can believe it; this was the same character that woke him up in an earlier adventure) at cost of a very expensive item; and one jumped into a fire and survived that way. The remaining three or so all died.

Nasty? You betcha! Cheating? I don't think so...

Lanefan

 

[Delta]

I would be a very sad grognard to play in a world with no unbreakable doors (or other mysteries beyond all known magic effects). If the response of the Fellowship at the door to Moiria was to bash the door down, and failing that, bash through the wall next to it, I don't think the story would be nearly so compelling.

And frankly I'd be a sad DM to have to be required to create origin stories for every mysterious trick or puzzle I put in the game.

 

[PallidPatience]

It also allowed several methods of "solving". The door wasn't magically (without magic) unbreakable, and the way didn't require an easily missed gidget from room 750b. It was merely a difficult puzzle, and it relied on game mechanics (the illusionary aspects were actually able to be disbelieved, and the door was able to be broken) to deal with it, as opposed to the situations mentioned earlier.