WHEN are Spot/Listen or Hide/Move Silent checks called for?

[Water Bob]

Per 3.5 rules, when is it correct for the GM to call for a Hide/Move Silent or Spot/Listen check?

Let's use an example so that all responses start from the same base.




Take a situation where the GM's hungry panther is stalking prey, a PC, through sparsely forested terrain.

Panther
Listen +6, Spot +6, Hide +8, Move Silently +8
low-light vision, scent


Silaigne Deepblade
Listen +2, Spot +6, Hide +5, Move Silently +8


Terrain Rules: Maxium Spot distance in Sparse Forest is 3d6 x 10 feet. Making the throw, we get a Max Spot range of 100 feet.





How would this encounter play out, by the rules? When does the GM throw Listen or Spot checks? How do we determine if the Panther sneaks up upon and attacks the PC, or if the PC sees or hears the panther approaching first?

How do you determine starting distance for the encounter?

 

[anest1s]

Per 3.5 rules, when is it correct for the GM to call for a Hide/Move Silent or Spot/Listen check?

Let's use an example so that all responses start from the same base.




Take a situation where the GM's hungry panther is stalking prey, a PC, through sparsely forested terrain.

Panther
Listen +6, Spot +6, Hide +8, Move Silently +8
low-light vision, scent


Silaigne Deepblade
Listen +2, Spot +6, Hide +5, Move Silently +8


Terrain Rules: Maxium Spot distance in Sparse Forest is 3d6 x 10 feet. Making the throw, we get a Max Spot range of 100 feet.





How would this encounter play out, by the rules? When does the GM throw Listen or Spot checks? How do we determine if the Panther sneaks up upon and attacks the PC, or if the PC sees or hears the panther approaching first?

How do you determine starting distance for the encounter?

We first make the rolls:
Panther (16 hide) (11 move silently)
Deepblade (25 spot) (21 listen)

Deepblade beats Panthers hide for 9 points, and move silently for 10 points.
The DC is +1 for 10ft of distance, so Deepblade will first spot the Panther ar 90ft and listen him at 100ft. If he wasn't paying attention, he would have -5 so he would spot the panther at 40 ft and listen him at 50ft.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

C.Adventurer has rules for stealthy following/pursuit, IIRC.

 

[Nezkrul]

Honestly, rolling of the dice only occurs when the DM calls for it.

 

[Water Bob]

The DC is +1 for 10ft of distance, so Deepblade will first spot the Panther ar 90ft and listen him at 100ft.

I used to think this was the case, the -1 modifier to Spot per 10ft., but upon re-reading the rules, it seems that specific modifier only applies to Spot checks that are rolled to determine encounter distance, not all Spot checks.

Which makes sense because, otherwise, most people can't see very far or spot hardly anything.

The rule says, "Spot may be called for to determine the distance at which an encounter begins. A penalty applies on such checks, depending on the distance the two individuals or groups and an additional penalty may if the character making the Spot check is distracted and not concentrating on being observant."

Thus, normal Spot checks would not use the -1 per 10 foot penalty.

C.Adventurer has rules for stealthy following/pursuit, IIRC.

Thanks, I'll check it out. Maybe something there will put some light on how the rule is supposed to be used.

Honestly, rolling of the dice only occurs when the DM calls for it.

What throws me off is mentioned in the Action section of the Spot skill description. There, it says: Every time you have a chance to spot something in a reactive manner you can make a Spot check without using an action.

Combine this with the fact that there is no facing in the game without using Optional or House Rules, and you run into a situation where a guard could get a chance to see a thief sneaking up on him every round.

That can't be, because it would make sneaking around almost impossible to pull off. All the guard has to do is win the toss one time, and he spots the Thief.

The same thing applies if you make the stalking panther roll a hide check as it moves from cover to cover. If the panther starts 100 feet away, and the panther is sneaking up on the PC as the PC drinks water (Distraction penalty applies to the PC in this case), the panther is only moving at Speed 19 or less (less than Half Speed). That's 6 checks (12 checks if you add in Listen/Move Silently) that the panther has to win in order to sneak up on the PC. That's a dice battle that the panther cannot win.

Then, if you keep reading under the Action section of the Spot check description, it says: Trying to spot something you failed to see previously is a move action.

So, what are the rules really saying here?

That the PC gets one free shot at spotting the panther at 100 feet. If that check fails to spot the panther, then the panther automatically sneaks up on the PC unless the PC purposefully uses a move action to make a Spot check?

 

[Water Bob]

C.Adventurer has rules for stealthy following/pursuit, IIRC.

Honestly, rolling of the dice only occurs when the DM calls for it.

The tailing rules in the Complete Adventurer suggest a Spot/Hide check once per 10 minutes if the distance between the two is 60 feet or more. Inside of 60 feet, a check is made once per round.

If a GM calls for a check on a whim, how does he govern the actions between sneaking characters and their quarry farily? If he throws a single check for the entire encounter, this favors the sneakers. If he calls for multiple checks to be made, this favors the watchers.

The question is: How to gover the Spot/Hide and Listen/Move Silently checks fairly, no matter which side the PCs happen to be on.





EDIT: I suppose a die roll can be made, something like: If in combat rounds, a six sider is thrown each round, and each time it results in a "1", then Spot/Hide checks are made. Each time it results in a "2" Listen/Move Silently checks are made.

If outside of combat rounds, a six sider can be thrown to determine how many checks, total will be made, with Odd favoring Listen checks and Even favoring Spot checks. Thus, if a 5 is thrown, then the encounter will include 3 Listen/Move Silent checks and 2 Spot/Move Silently checks.

Just a thought. But, this seems a bit too "house rule-y" to me.

I'm interested in how the Stealth rules were meant to be played.

 

[anest1s]

I used to think this was the case, the -1 modifier to Spot per 10ft., but upon re-reading the rules, it seems that specific modifier only applies to Spot checks that are rolled to determine encounter distance, not all Spot checks.

Which makes sense because, otherwise, most people can't see very far or spot hardly anything.

The rule says, "Spot may be called for to determine the distance at which an encounter begins. A penalty applies on such checks, depending on the distance the two individuals or groups and an additional penalty may if the character making the Spot check is distracted and not concentrating on being observant."

Thus, normal Spot checks would not use the -1 per 10 foot penalty.







Thanks, I'll check it out. Maybe something there will put some light on how the rule is supposed to be used.







What throws me off is mentioned in the Action section of the Spot skill description. There, it says: Every time you have a chance to spot something in a reactive manner you can make a Spot check without using an action.

Combine this with the fact that there is no facing in the game without using Optional or House Rules, and you run into a situation where a guard could get a chance to see a thief sneaking up on him every round.

That can't be, because it would make sneaking around almost impossible to pull off. All the guard has to do is win the toss one time, and he spots the Thief.

The same thing applies if you make the stalking panther roll a hide check as it moves from cover to cover. If the panther starts 100 feet away, and the panther is sneaking up on the PC as the PC drinks water (Distraction penalty applies to the PC in this case), the panther is only moving at Speed 19 or less (less than Half Speed). That's 6 checks (12 checks if you add in Listen/Move Silently) that the panther has to win in order to sneak up on the PC. That's a dice battle that the panther cannot win.

Then, if you keep reading under the Action section of the Spot check description, it says: Trying to spot something you failed to see previously is a move action.

So, what are the rules really saying here?

That the PC gets one free shot at spotting the panther at 100 feet. If that check fails to spot the panther, then the panther automatically sneaks up on the PC unless the PC purposefully uses a move action to make a Spot check?

You said yourself that the -1/10ft applies to see when the encounter starts. You asked when the encounter starts. So it applies.

The panther will be heard at 50ft, will win the initiative (hopefully) and will charge on the surprise round.Or ready an action. Or something. The spotter will play on the surprise round too; everyone else will be flat footed.

Distracted means "not paying attention". If the players don't state that they are on guard, they are distracted.


___________________
In combat it will be hard for the panther to hide anyway - the players will use move actions to spot him.

"Every time you have a chance to spot something in a reactive manner you can make a Spot check without using an action."

Its a DM call...I would rule that if something happens that draws the attention to the area of the hider, an extra hiding should be made. Also when you move from a forest to an open area, when you set camp (bc you probably look around) etc.

However its irrelevant, because the encounter won't start until the panther decides to attack (or the party attacks the panther)

Edit: Also, in combat I think that everytime the hiding panther tries to move he has to hide his movement.
Edit: The PCs as watchers are always favored, since they are more than 1. As hiders they are penalized bc the minimum check is the one that applies.

 

[Water Bob]

The CORRECT way to play out Stealth encounters???

Take a situation where the GM's hungry panther is stalking prey, a PC, through sparsely forested terrain.

Panther
Listen +6, Spot +6, Hide +8, Move Silently +8
low-light vision, scent


Silaigne Deepblade
Listen +2, Spot +6, Hide +5, Move Silently +8


Terrain Rules: Maxium Spot distance in Sparse Forest is 3d6 x 10 feet.

So is this what the rules are saying....? Is this how the encounter should be played???



1. First, the GM determines maximum detection range using the terrain rules. Sparse Forest = 3d6 x 10'. Throw 3, 5, 2, for a total of 100 feet.

The panther is lying in wait, looking for prey. The PC is moving through the forest at his normal Walk speed of 30.



2. Panther's senses: The panther gets a reactive Spot and a Listen check, per the rules. The panther isn't moving and not making sound, so the PC only gets a Spot check.

Panther Spot: d20 +6 (skill) = 12
PC Hide: d20 +5 (skill) -5 (move penalty) +0 (panther size modifier) = 5

No need for panther Listen check as the Spot check succeeded.

Using the encounter distance rule, the panther spots Deepblade at 70 feet distant.



3. PC's senses: Deepblade could spot the panther also.

Deepblade's Spot: d20 +6 (skill) = 23
Panther's Hide: d20 + 8 (skill) +2 (advantaged bonus) +0 (PC size modifier) = 15

Using the encounter distance rule, the PC sees the panther at 80 feet.






The GM describes the situation thusly: "Silaigne, you're walking along, through the sparse woods, when, off to your right, you see a black speck move off the top of a rock. It's a panther!

The panther easily jumps from the rock where it was laying to the ground, takes a few steps in your direction, as if it is not sure.

Encounter distance is 70 feet. Roll initiative.







Panther Initiative = 13
Deepblade Initiative = 14



Round 1

Silaigne: I pull my sword, slowly, and back away from the panther.

GM: OK, you can pull your weapon from its scabbard as part of your move. Backing up like that, facing the cat the entire time, you increase range by 30 feet. Range between you and the panther is now 100 feet.

Panther: The panther breaks into a run for you, moving at double speed. He covers 80 feet. He's only 20 feet from you, but it's your turn.



Round 2

Silaigne: I'm doing a Ready Action. If that cat attacks me, I'm swinging.

GM: Good. You plant yourself with a wide, steady stance. As the black beast runs towards you, you swing your steel around your torso in swirling patterns, loosing your muscles. You hands come to rest, gripping your blade, in the ready position.

Panther: The great black cat charges, using it's Pounce ability. But, you get your Readied Action first.

Silaigne: I swing with a total attack of 19.

GM: The cat leaps, but you swing at it, slicing it's forepaws and underbelly, just before it lands on you! Damage!

Silaigne: Damage is 13 total.

GM: Your blade slices the cat to the bone! It happens so quick, it's hard for you to know more. But, that momentary sight of bone beneath the black fur, and the feel of your weapon as it slices through the cat, tells you that your stroke was true.

GM: It is momentum alone that carries the cat into you, and it is alive, going wild, clawing and biting you. The claws barely scratch you, applying no damage. But the thing does chomp at the side of your face as it pushes off. Take 10 points of damage and consider the right side of your neck and ear bloodied and deeply scratched from the bite. And, since the bite was successful, it can use its Improved Grab ability. (Grapple check.) You're too quick for that, though, and your off-hand you manage to get between you and the cat. You push it off.



Round 3

Silaigne: The cat is in front of me, then, having just been thrown to the ground. I recover with both hands and swing at it. I roll a total of 8.

GM: You're not quick enough. Your blade bites into the earth. But, you get another chance as the cat scrambles to get to its feet again. It's going to bolt, but first you get an attack of opportunity as it leaves your threatened area.

Silaigne: My swing is a total of 12.

Panther: Too slow again. You swing where the cat was. It runs, at top speed, 80 feet away and disappears behind a copse of trees.



GM: We're out of rounds, now, back into scenes.

Silaigne: The thing's wounded, badly, and probably not going to re-engage me. Normally, I'd track it, following the blood trail, but I have no time. I've got to get back to the village.

End of encounter.





(I rolled real dice as I was writing this encounter, not knowing where it was going to go. That didn't make for much stealth gaming, though.)

 

[Water Bob]

1. First, the GM determines maximum detection range using the terrain rules. Sparse Forest = 3d6 x 10'. Throw 3, 5, 2, for a total of 100 feet.

The panther is lying in wait, looking for prey. The PC is moving through the forest at his normal Walk speed of 30.



2. Panther's senses: The panther gets a reactive Spot and a Listen check, per the rules. The panther isn't moving and not making sound, so the PC only gets a Spot check.

Panther Spot: d20 +6 (skill) = 12
PC Hide: d20 +5 (skill) -5 (move penalty) +0 (panther size modifier) = 5

No need for panther Listen check as the Spot check succeeded.

Using the encounter distance rule, the panther spots Deepblade at 70 feet distant.



3. PC's senses: Deepblade could spot the panther also.

Deepblade's Spot: d20 +6 (skill) = 23
Panther's Hide: d20 + 8 (skill) +2 (advantaged bonus) +0 (PC size modifier) = 15

Using the encounter distance rule, the PC sees the panther at 80 feet.

If this is, indeed, the method the book suggests in starting encounters, especially stealth encounters, it sure seems impractical. I mean, that's a lot to do--a lot of rolling--right at the beginning of an encounter. And, I didn't even use Listen/Move Silent checks above--that adds even more throws.

Plus, many times the GM doesn't want to tip off the players with dice throws or allow them to know how well they did. I mean saying, "Roll a Spot check," is a sure fire way to alert otherwise non-alert PCs that they should be on their guard and ask for several Spot and Listen checks.

If I've got the rules correct above, then there has got to be a better way to fairly implement the detection rules in 3.5.





EDIT: And, what about multipe characters? Let's say your PC party of six is traveling down the wood, single file, and there is an encounter with a band of bandits, ten strong.

Who sees who? Who hears who? How is this supposed to be played in the game?

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

I think this is one of those areas where DM makes the call to determine what is fast, fair and fun.

If I was DMing your scenario with my veteran players and they were actively roleplaying travel thru the woods, they'd only get a Listen and Spot check if they said they were making one. They should know better by now.

If I was DMing with a newer group, or if I was feeling benevolent, as soon as the Panther had spotted the PC's and began stalking, I'd have the players roll. If they failed, I'd not make a big deal of it, I randomly call for rolls time to time anyway.

I'd also roll to see if the Panther made a really poor Move Silently or Hide when the PC's were facing the Panther's way, and regardless of their rolls I'd say they heard a branch snap or saw a black mass move.

Otherwise, if they never spot him when the cat get's within the range of Movement to close the gap, the Panther attacks and get's a surprise round.