When did gnomes fall from grace?

[Plane Sailing]

Gnomes were not there in OD&D, they seemed a pointless enough introduction in AD&D (where did they come from? Was someone trying to say 'no, we are not based on Tolkein *at all*. See these gnomes? Tolkein didn't have them, right?'). Further than that, the pictures all gave them the most stupid bulbous noses imaginable.

I hated them from the moment they appeared in 1e, and they have never existed in any of my campaign worlds.

Until now, that is. I really like what Eberron has done for them. For me, Eberron has defined the gnomic niche beautifully.

edit: I started writing this response, had to leave my computer for a couple of hours and the conversation moved way, way on... but I'm leaving it for posterity!

Cheers

 

[Hellcow]

In my alternate take on them above, I changed the magical focus from illusions to enchantments to emphasise this - not strictly necessary, but it scratches an itch of mine.

I have no problem with that. Like I said, *I'm* content to leave them as they are because it keeps things simple. But enchantments are very appropriate for Zil culture.

But... I'm sorry, I know I should let it go but I can't get past it... burrowing animals? Maybe ferrets have a lovely singing voice?

Ask a Thrane, and he'll tell you those gnomes are just a bunch of dirty rats.

(Of course, this ignores your point that rats aren't technically burrowing, but so it goes. I'm more troubled by the fact that by D&D, rats aren't 'vermin".)

I care I care! Thanks, I shall look. Is it in the 'Ask KB' thread?

Yes. The simplest thing to do is to go to the Ask Keith FAQ, which compresesses almost 200 pages of thread into 7, and use the embedded search feature of the browser to search for a key word (like "favored").

And may I say I am having a lot of fun so far with Eberron, thank you very much.

You're welcome!

Look one last thing since you're here Keith (see, bang on inanely for long enough and the big hitters come on to sort you out!), Eberron gnomes are the master elemental binders, right? Considerations you've raised above notwithstanding, I'd be interested in a re-worked gnome with mechanics to support this function, but I've no idea how elemental binding works.

This is similar to halflings riding dinosaurs, but even more so. On Khorvaire, the Zil gnomes are the only people who have mastered the art of elemental binding. But as it stands, this is not because of an innate racial aptitude, and it's not widespread across the nation. It's more tied to their being explorers. Zil explorers recovered the secrets of elemental binding from Xen'drik - and they've spent a few centuries refining those techniques. The Trust considers this a national resource and there are rumors (unsubstantiated) that they have taken action against members of the Twelve or the Arcane Congress who have tried to replicate this. In general, a PC who decides to take up elemental binding should be safe enough, as long as they don't try and found an entire business on it - in which case the gnomes might act to shut them down.

But elemental binding is an acquired trait for the gnomes, not an innate one.

 

[Hellcow]

Taking your logic though, the halflings are quite silly to live in the plains. They should be living in the jungles where their Mutant Powers would be beneficial.

Perhaps. But personally, I think you're overestimating both "mutant powers" and the effect culture has on racial statistics.

A halfling receives a +2 Dex and -2 Str. These are biological factors. It is a small creature incapable of lifting much weight.

A halfling receives a +2 to Climb, Jump, and Move Silently. This is described as being due to the fact that halfings are "agile, surefooted, and athletic" - not because "halflings are trained in stealth from an early age and perform regular calesthenics". In my opinion, this is a PHYSICAL trait - not a cultural one. With a -2 Str modifier, a halfling would normally suck at both Climb and Jump. This bonus says that not only do they not suck, they're actually sure-footed and quick. Their build is ill-designed for carrying heavy loads, but they are better climbers than raw strength would account for. An alternative approach would have been to allow them to use Dex instead of Str for Climb checks, like a monkey. I believe that the "monkey build" is what we're dealing with - one of the differences between gnomes and halflings, both small creatures with a -2 Str. Gnomes are small and stocky, receiving no bonus to physical skills. Halflings are quick and agile, making them better at climbing and jumping and much better at moving quietly (having both the racial bonus and the Dex bonus).

Tied to this, we have the +2 to Listen checks, because they have "keen ears". Personally, I take this to mean just that: the halfling sense of hearing is better than that of a human. Do you think that's the case, or that halflings are trained to eavesdrop as kids? A racial bonus is something that is possessed by all members of a race, regardless of how or where they are raised. Thus, I would assume that the Climb bonus is EXACTLY the same as the Listen bonus - the result of a physiological difference between humans and halflings, or halflings and gnomes. it doesn't matter if they grow up in the jungle, the city, or the plains - their build is well suited to climbing.

Now, a halfling in the Talenta Plains is more likely to take SKILL RANKS in Ride and Handle Animal than many other characters, because he encounters those things on a regular basis. But he has that bonus to climb whether or not he ever does climb, because it's part of who he is. A racial bonus to Ride would mean that all halflings are skilled riders, regardless of whether they grew up in the Talenta Plains, Sharn, or in a family of humans - and that seems like far more of a mutant power than having a build that's weak but agile.

 

[LordMelquiades]

Ask a Thrane, and he'll tell you those gnomes are just a bunch of dirty rats.

Don't put James Cagney in my head - I'll never get him out! The Cagney-Gnome... He was even short...

I'm more troubled by the fact that by D&D, rats aren't 'vermin".

I did not realise that. That is the stupidest thing I've heard in weeks. Thanks - I shall enjoy being mildly outraged by it.

Thanks for the FAQ tip too.

And as for the whole elemental binding response - thank you VERY much. That is cool stuff. Hence, you are a game designer, and I am a corporate drone.

 

[Staffan]

(Of course, this ignores your point that rats aren't technically burrowing, but so it goes. I'm more troubled by the fact that by D&D, rats aren't 'vermin".)

That's because in D&D, "vermin" means "bug". I was about to say "insect," but spiders and scorpions aren't insects.

 

[Gez]

If rats were Vermins in D&D, then they would have to have the following trait, which doesn't really make sense for them:
Mindless: No Intelligence score, and immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).

In addition, all vertebrate animals are Animals, rats would thus be an odd exception.

As Staffan said, Vermin means bug -- and from there it's generalized to all invertebrate animals (with squids and octopi as the exceptions, because they're too smart to be mindless). A jellyfish is a Vermin, as is a snail, a spider, a centipede or a roach.

 

[Hellcow]

As Staffan said, Vermin means bug -- and from there it's generalized to all invertebrate animals (with squids and octopi as the exceptions, because they're too smart to be mindless). A jellyfish is a Vermin, as is a snail, a spider, a centipede or a roach.

Absolutely. I never said that I didn't understand it in game terms - simply that it came as a surprise to me when I realized it. Rats are animals, no question about it - it's just funny to me that the creature that is almost synonymous with the word (to quote one definition, "Various small animals or insects, such as rats or cockroaches, that are destructive, annoying, or injurious to health.") is not a vermin in D&D terms.

The reason this came up for me is because of the Children of Winter, who are supposed to have an affinity for vermin as defined by the dictionary - IE, insects, but also the small animals that spread disease and make life difficult for farmers. Thematically, it makes much more sense for a Child of WInter to associate with a swarm of rats than with a giant praying mantis - but because we've gone with vermin in the ECS, as it stands that's exactly the case.

So I KNOW why rats aren't vermin in the D&D sense - but for the CoW, it's frustrating for me that they aren't.

 

[Gez]

Why couldn't you use something like "vermins and rodents" ?

*Pictures a cutesy, Piffany-esque Child of Winter tagging along a swarm of butterflies and ladybugs.*

 

[Hellcow]

*Pictures a cutesy, Piffany-esque Child of Winter tagging along a swarm of butterflies and ladybugs.*

Awww....

Yes, vermin and rodents (dare I say "burrowing mammals"? No, wait, that doesn't work either!) would have made more sense. The main thing is that as it stands, the Vermin Shape feat actually prevents the druid from assuming animal form, which I think may have been an unnecessary restriction; you are already sacrificing a feat, and vermin don't seem so superior to animals as a rule. On the other hand, a CoW druid doesn't HAVE to take that feat, and I suspect that many do not.

But we're getting WAy off track here.

 

[diaglo]

Gnomes were not there in OD&D, they seemed a pointless enough introduction in AD&D (where did they come from? Was someone trying to say 'no, we are not based on Tolkein *at all*. See these gnomes? Tolkein didn't have them, right?'). Further than that, the pictures all gave them the most stupid bulbous noses imaginable.

I hated them from the moment they appeared in 1e, and they have never existed in any of my campaign worlds.

Until now, that is. I really like what Eberron has done for them. For me, Eberron has defined the gnomic niche beautifully.

edit: I started writing this response, had to leave my computer for a couple of hours and the conversation moved way, way on... but I'm leaving it for posterity!

Cheers

gnomes were in OD&D. heck, they were in Chainmail.

they weren't a PC race. strictly NPC. and they were a variant/subrace of dwarf.