When did I stop being WotC's target audience?

[Rel]

To me, since with 4e the transition from "dungeon exploration game" to "combat skirmish game" is complete, looking at your above criteria, to me 4e is the least D&D of all published editions.

Could you cite for me the parts of the game that make "dungeon exploration" more difficult than in previous editions?

As for the broader question, I've never considered myself to be an audience that D&D is or isn't catering to. That seems to imply inaction on my part. I've got tastes in gaming that have changed considerably over time. Early on I played D&D. I tried MERP and Rolemaster and liked the more complex skill system so I switched to that. After a dozen years the complexity became more than I wanted to deal with and 3.0 D&D came out so I changed to that. I'm now identifiying some features of 4.0 that work really well for our group so I'm shifting to that.

But honestly, 6 months ago, I was SURE that I'd be using Savage Worlds for my next campaign. It was still a bit of a tossup because I really like SW but I think that 4e is a better fit for our group as a whole.

I was totally ready to fire D&D as my game of choice and I've fired them before. I guess I don't view them as owing me any particular loyalty.

 

[Jack99]

People who?

Maybe he has two accounts?

 

[rgard]

I can't answer your question, Jeff, since I'm sitting in the same boat with you. (Although I'm much younger than you at 38. )

Youngins. Same boat but 47 here.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

I feel the same way as the OP.

 

[Halivar]

Yes you could take the Shakespearean approach and go "a rose by any other name would smell as sweet", or you could realize that just because it looks like one a bidet is NOT a toilet. The names are different to actually tell people what you are actually talking about and thus why they are different.

This smacks of "sure, you can do it wrong, if you want." The implication is either that he's blind, or willfully ignorant.

4E is D&D at his table. And mine. And bunch of other people, too. We are not calling a bidet a toilet. We are not "doing it wrong." 4E doesn't capture the same game you've been playing previously. We get that. It does for us, though, and it would be more helpful to the discussion if the non-switchers would accept that and stop telling us we're living in La-La Land.

 

[Andor]

Could you cite for me the parts of the game that make "dungeon exploration" more difficult than in previous editions?

Speaking just for myself... The increased distance between the game system and any sort of imagineable reality reduces my immersion in character. So instead of feeling like a bold explorer pushing back the darkness I feel like I'm moving a token in a boardgame and asking if I have LOS to the new combat yet.

It's entirely a matter of perception, as are all matters of taste.

 

[Quantarum]

It's entirely a matter of perception, as are all matters of taste.

So in other words we're wasting our time and angst over something that can't be resolved. Good to know.

-Q.

 

[Simon Atavax]

Speaking just for myself... The increased distance between the game system and any sort of imagineable reality reduces my immersion in character. So instead of feeling like a bold explorer pushing back the darkness I feel like I'm moving a token in a boardgame and asking if I have LOS to the new combat yet.

This distinction between "dungeon exploration" and "combat skirmish" really nails it for me. D&D 4e definitely feels more like a boardgame than any previous edition, by far. It feels like most of the time in combat the goal is to choose the correct "power card" to enable you to move an opponent "one square" or whatnot. A long way away from how it used to be.

IMHO, of course.

 

[scruffygrognard]

I don't get this. What did they do to suddenly eject you from their customer base so forcefully? Is there something about the new edition of the game that you find completely abhorrent, or what?

In my case, and in the case of EVERY gamer I know personally (20 to 30 people), 4th Edition just doesn't fill the bill for sating the craving for D&D.

Gameplay is too different (the gamey feel of powers, the loss of utility spells, the diminished differentiation between how classes work, the reliance on combat grids and abilities that shift units in combat, what races and classes are core, etc) from past versions of D&D for me to consider it D&D.

At the same time, I enjoy plenty of non-D&D games (Pendragon, Call of Cthulhu, DC Heroes, Deadlands, Feng Shui, Shadowrun and so on) so it's not just a case of me adhering to D&D and its "sacred cows" out of close-mindedness.

D&D, to me, should be a fairly generic fantasy roleplaying game with fairly generic races and classes at its core. 4th edition has moved away from this and away from what I've grown to consider as classic D&D tropes over the last 25 years. As a result, the game doesn't FEEL like D&D to me... whereas, warts and all, every other version of D&D has done so.

Am I angry or upset? No

Am I going to support a game that I just don't enjoy? No

I just hope that the D&D brand reverts back to a company that respects its roots and can innovate without reinventing the game in such a drastic manner.

 

[Sunderstone]

In my case, and in the case of EVERY gamer I know personally (20 to 30 people), 4th Edition just doesn't fill the bill for sating the craving for D&D.

Gameplay is too different (the gamey feel of powers, the loss of utility spells, the diminished differentiation between how classes work, the reliance on combat grids and abilities that shift units in combat, what races and classes are core, etc) from past versions of D&D for me to consider it D&D.

At the same time, I enjoy plenty of non-D&D games (Pendragon, Call of Cthulhu, DC Heroes, Deadlands, Feng Shui, Shadowrun and so on) so it's not just a case of me adhering to D&D and its "sacred cows" out of close-mindedness.

D&D, to me, should be a fairly generic fantasy roleplaying game with fairly generic races and classes at its core. 4th edition has moved away from this and away from what I've grown to consider as classic D&D tropes over the last 25 years. As a result, the game doesn't FEEL like D&D to me... whereas, warts and all, every other version of D&D has done so.

Am I angry or upset? No

Am I going to support a game that I just don't enjoy? No

I just hope that the D&D brand reverts back to a company that respects its roots and can innovate without reinventing the game in such a drastic manner.

^ This sums it up for me nice and neat, with the exception that Im currently not playing anything but D&D atm.