enworldatemylogin
First Post
You will not find a definative date for the death of Orcus at Kiaransalee's hand but the most recent reference to his death and uh, rebirth, is in the Book of Vile Darkness.
When did Orcus die?
- Thread starter Alzrius
- Start date
Monte At Home
Explorer
The reference in Planes of Chaos (on the big Abyss poster thing) makes it sound like a fairly recent event. I'd say like within a hundred years or so. Dead Gods says "a long time ago," but that's pretty relative.
I'd suggest within the last 100 years.
I'd suggest within the last 100 years.
Sammael99
First Post
Ha ha !
How much better can you expect than having Monte chime in ?
I would posit that even though I understand you're interested in finding an exact reference, 100 years or 1000 years means very little in Planescape terms since years are going to affect different prime material worlds differently, no ?
Or are you looking for a duration in Sigil terms ?
How much better can you expect than having Monte chime in ?
I would posit that even though I understand you're interested in finding an exact reference, 100 years or 1000 years means very little in Planescape terms since years are going to affect different prime material worlds differently, no ?
Or are you looking for a duration in Sigil terms ?
Alzrius
The EN World kitten
Wow, thanks Monte!
I was just interested because the 100 year paradigm was one I've had in mind for a long time now, and it was irking me that I was sure I had seen it written that way in a Planescape product but couldn't remember it before. That way it seemed to mesh pretty cleanly with Return to the Tomb of Horrors and such. I guess it was just in my own mind though.
I'm still not sure how correct the "Bloodstone Wars" bit makes it, since according to that he hadn't been killed as recently as 15 years ago.
Anyway, I'm satisfied with the answer I got (at least until I can go home and dig out my old products
). Thanks again everyone!
I was just interested because the 100 year paradigm was one I've had in mind for a long time now, and it was irking me that I was sure I had seen it written that way in a Planescape product but couldn't remember it before. That way it seemed to mesh pretty cleanly with Return to the Tomb of Horrors and such. I guess it was just in my own mind though.
I'm still not sure how correct the "Bloodstone Wars" bit makes it, since according to that he hadn't been killed as recently as 15 years ago.
Anyway, I'm satisfied with the answer I got (at least until I can go home and dig out my old products
). Thanks again everyone!
Echohawk
Shirokinukatsukami fan
Alzrius said:
If you do decide to update "A Brief History of Orcus" (which I really enjoyed, BTW), here are some responses to some of the footnotes:
Footnote 9 says "If the compiler remembers correctly, the first edition Fiend Folio had an entry for death knights, and entry that mentioned something about Orcus creating them." It is actually Demogorgon who is mentioned as a possible creator of death knights: "The death knight ... is a horrifying form of lich created by a demon prince (it is thought Demogorgon)". Aside: My Fiend Folio smells funny. Nothing like that old, musty book smell ;-).
Footnotes 13 and 15 refer to an old Dragon Magazine article. The article in question is "Setting saintly standards" by Scott Bennie, in issue 79. The relevant text on St. Bane is: "Bane was responsible for the death of the witch-ghoul Khuul, one of Orcus' greatest servants, and he attacked and nearly slew Orcus on his home plane. For his valor, Bane was rewarded with sainthood."
The text on St. Kargoth ("King of Death Knights") says: "Kargoth was a great paladin, until he unleashed a demonic terror on the Prime Material Plane in a mad bargain for personal power. The grateful demon prince transformed Kargoth into the first and most powerful Death Knight." Later in his description, it mentions him serving Demogorgon willingly, implying that Demogorgon is the demon prince concerned, which tallies with the Fiend Folio reference. The only mention of Orcus in Kargoth's write up is a note that Kargoth automatically commands any undead he counters except those directly serving Orcus. Nowhere does it specifically say that Kargoth ever served Demogorgon in his war against Orcus, as noted in your article.
(Incidentally, "Kazgoroth" is the name of the shape-shifting god which threatened the Moonshae isles in the Forgotten Realms in the novel Darkwalker on Moonshae, just in case you were wondering.)
WizarDru
Adventurer
Under current listings (i.e. 3E), the write-up (by Erik Mona, I think) in the recent two-part Death Knight LGJ article, specifically tags Orcus as Kargoth's creator and master. Whether this is out of whole cloth or in reference to previous material, I couldn't say.
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Arnwyn
First Post
I'm at the office, so IDHTBIFOM, but from that article I gathered that the mention of the time of Orcus's death at the hands of Kiaransalee is on page 15 of the PS box "Hellbound" (under "The Death of Orcus" and "The Time Line"). I have that box, but can't reference it right now...
In any case, neither this reference nor Monte's answer can reconcile with the module H4 (as you noted, that module assumes that Orcus is alive no more than 15-20 years ago, at least in FR years - that module occurs around 1347 FR-time, while the mention of Kiaransalee and her Banshee Knights in the FR product Demihuman Deities assumes the year is 1368 FR-time).
Has it ever been definitively stated how time progresses on the Planes as compared to the Prime? If not, the only way to reconcile H4 with Dead Gods is by assuming that time passes differently on the Planes.
[That's how I've explained it, anyways, since I use both adventures in my campaign. *shrug* Not great, but It'll have to do.]
In any case, neither this reference nor Monte's answer can reconcile with the module H4 (as you noted, that module assumes that Orcus is alive no more than 15-20 years ago, at least in FR years - that module occurs around 1347 FR-time, while the mention of Kiaransalee and her Banshee Knights in the FR product Demihuman Deities assumes the year is 1368 FR-time).
Has it ever been definitively stated how time progresses on the Planes as compared to the Prime? If not, the only way to reconcile H4 with Dead Gods is by assuming that time passes differently on the Planes.
[That's how I've explained it, anyways, since I use both adventures in my campaign. *shrug* Not great, but It'll have to do.]
MythandLore
First Post
I guess I'll give my two cents also.
In H1-4 King Virdin is killed in 1147 in FR (before the begining of H1) by the end of H4 (about two years latter) it would be 1149ish, at that point the "party" is assumed to have Taken the wand and destroyed it by killing Tiamat (even though both could reform) Those have to happen to win the Mod. Orcus does not have to be killed by the players to win (But he can be. ), but tiamat must.
Now in second ed. they changed the timeline to 1357 in FR so the event would coinside with the whole time of troubles deal, shifting the event by 210 years.
Current time in 3rd Ed. FR is 1370s.
So if you go by the Mods it was 220+ years ago, in second/third ed. RE-timeline it's much later.
__
BTW the 100th level one (H4) can be played at lower levels (it was made for 18-100th level), they just make the encounters harder if you are stronger in it.
In H1-4 King Virdin is killed in 1147 in FR (before the begining of H1) by the end of H4 (about two years latter) it would be 1149ish, at that point the "party" is assumed to have Taken the wand and destroyed it by killing Tiamat (even though both could reform) Those have to happen to win the Mod. Orcus does not have to be killed by the players to win (But he can be.
), but tiamat must. Now in second ed. they changed the timeline to 1357 in FR so the event would coinside with the whole time of troubles deal, shifting the event by 210 years.
Current time in 3rd Ed. FR is 1370s.
So if you go by the Mods it was 220+ years ago, in second/third ed. RE-timeline it's much later.
__
BTW the 100th level one (H4) can be played at lower levels (it was made for 18-100th level), they just make the encounters harder if you are stronger in it.
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