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When Did Rome Fall?

Zardnaar

Legend
As the title says. When did the Roman empire fall?

The traditional date is 476CE although others say 480CE.

In recent decades 1453 is also picking up steam as the Byzantines Empire was an investigation by western historians as they identified as Roman and we're a political continuation of that state.

One could even claim 1460/61 as the last remnants of the Byzantine state fell to the Ottomans (Morea and Trebizond).

Others claim the 6th or 7th century with the last latin areas left and the institutions, legions and language fell out of use in the Eastern Empire.

Then you have remnants such as the Catholic Church, San Marino and Venice also surving the fall in the west.

Finally apparently some people on the Greek Islands as late as the 19th century identified as Romans vs Hellenes around the Greek War of independence. They were nominally under Turkish rule but had carried on much as they had since the fall of Constantinople.

For me I think of 1453 although I find it funny some people as late as the 19th century could plausibly identify as Roman.
 

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What do you consider the Roman empire to be?

While the traditional date of September 4, 476, when Odoacer deposed Romulus Augustulus, has many caveats, it is a good of an exact date as you will get for a long, complicated historical process like the fall of the Western Empire. No specific alternative late 5th century date has a sufficiently superior claim to be worth dispensing with tradition over. If, like me, you consider the Roman Empire to be defined as the Latin speaking empire centered around the city of Rome that's a solid way to think of its fall.

The continuing adventures of the Grecophone Eastern empire are the major complicating factor. Certainly, in spite of the formal trappings of Romanness, when the Byzantine empire fell in the 15th century it was not really the Roman empire as it is generally concieved anymore except as a matter of legal and political fiction, but at what point in the intervening centuries did it cease to be sufficiently Roman to "really be the same empire" is a question that can not be answered on a general level. You can focus on some particular element of Roman society and possibly get firm dates for when you feel it ended, but on a general level the Eastern half of the empire didn't fall, it gradually transformed into a different imperial animal that eventually fell.
 



Zardnaar

Legend
What do you consider the Roman empire to be?

While the traditional date of September 4, 476, when Odoacer deposed Romulus Augustulus, has many caveats, it is a good of an exact date as you will get for a long, complicated historical process like the fall of the Western Empire. No specific alternative late 5th century date has a sufficiently superior claim to be worth dispensing with tradition over. If, like me, you consider the Roman Empire to be defined as the Latin speaking empire centered around the city of Rome that's a solid way to think of its fall.

The continuing adventures of the Grecophone Eastern empire are the major complicating factor. Certainly, in spite of the formal trappings of Romanness, when the Byzantine empire fell in the 15th century it was not really the Roman empire as it is generally concieved anymore except as a matter of legal and political fiction, but at what point in the intervening centuries did it cease to be sufficiently Roman to "really be the same empire" is a question that can not be answered on a general level. You can focus on some particular element of Roman society and possibly get firm dates for when you feel it ended, but on a general level the Eastern half of the empire didn't fall, it gradually transformed into a different imperial animal that eventually fell.


Well it ceased being latin in the 6th and 7th centuries.

Well probably long before then but they lost Italia and most of the Roman institutions and ceased using latin.

But it was still governed by Roman citizens and the rulers considered themselves Roman.
 







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