When did WotC D&D "Jump the Shark"?

[Fifth Element]

I don't mean to crap on anyone's parade, but why would anybody care even in the slightest if there is a split in the fan base??????????

How could that possibly affect your gaming experience ???????

It doesn't have to directly affect one's own gaming experience to be an interesting point of discussion.

 

[Psion]

From an historical perspective, when did 3.5E D&D jump the shark?

In my mind, I see Weapons of Legacy as the beginning of times when it was really "not worth keeping up" with the 3.5 products coming out from WotC anymore.

 

[Odhanan]

WotC D&D jumped the shark with 3.5 D&D. It just took time for me to realize it. Then came Book of Nine Swords, and then it became increasingly obvious, with the Rust Monster Redux and all the BS that followed.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

From an historical perspective, when did 3.5E D&D jump the shark?

While there were several products I didn't buy, the one that I purchased that simply made me go "Blech!" was Tome of Battle.

 

[DaveMage]

In my mind, I see Weapons of Legacy as the beginning of times when it was really "not worth keeping up" with the 3.5 products coming out from WotC anymore.

Yeah, I did not like the execution of that book.

 

[BryonD]

In my mind, I see Weapons of Legacy as the beginning of times when it was really "not worth keeping up" with the 3.5 products coming out from WotC anymore.

Seems a good call.

Edit: Though some of the art was really good. To bad that was the entirety of value there....

 

[BryonD]

Once more: the party making the positive assertion has the onus of evidence placed upon it. I am not making a particular argument,

You seem to be under some illusion that this is a court of law.

But that aside, I've made my case. "No it isn't" fails to contradict that.

specifically because I do not believe there is sufficient evidence to make such an argument.

That sounds suspiciously like a positive assertion....

Is that clear now?

Yep. You have nothing to offer but don't like what the information says, so you are just muddying the water as much as you can.

I'm not offering a rebuttal, I'm suggesting you have not defined "in the same ballpark" such that it has any meaning. I can't rebut an opinion, which (it seems to me) is all you've provided.

For example, you could be saying that 4E and PF are in the same ballpark, and are very close to each other, and the third-ranked RPG is very far out of the ballpark. Or you could be saying that PF is just barely in the same ballpark as 4E, and the third-ranked game is just outside the ballpark, such that it's closer to PF than PF is to 4E. I don't know, because you haven't provided any meaningful points of comparison, just a lot of "it seems" and nebulous terms.

Ok, so in your own words you are stating that you don't know what "in the ballpark" means. Noted.

And I have covered all of this. I even specifically discussed at least two other games besides PF and 4E. So now you are just demonstrating how disconnected your point if view is.

But that's fine. The standard is not that I have to "prove" anything. The actual standard here is that I have to mystically force you to stop saying "no it isn't".

Obviously that is impossible. So you win. Congrats.

In the mean time, reality will be over here.

 

[BryonD]

Then came Book of Nine Swords, and then it became increasingly obvious, with the Rust Monster Redux and all the BS that followed.

It really is funny now to look back at all the complaints that were offered against Bo9S, MM IV, the monster re-dos, and then see not only how that was basically alpha tests for 4E concepts, but also see how they pushed ahead and were then, apparently, surprised at the complaints against 4E.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

You seem to be under some illusion that this is a court of law.

But that aside, I've made my case. "No it isn't" fails to contradict that.


That sounds suspiciously like a positive assertion....

Yep. You have nothing to offer but don't like what the information says, so you are just muddying the water as much as you can.

Ok, so in your own words you are stating that you don't know what "in the ballpark" means. Noted.

And I have covered all of this. I even specifically discussed at least two other games besides PF and 4E. So now you are just demonstrating how disconnected your point if view is.

But that's fine. The standard is not that I have to "prove" anything. The actual standard here is that I have to mystically force you to stop saying "no it isn't".

Obviously that is impossible. So you win. Congrats.

In the mean time, reality will be over here.

And what we're saying is your 'evidence' is either based on a tiny narrow selected group of people whom you apparently know. Beyond that all we've heard that I'd call backed up by evidence is "PF sells well, maybe comparably with 4e" and I've certainly seen enough edition wars to see that it certainly has a few rabid proponents. Likewise 4e. Beyond that? I take my own personal experience at AT LEAST the value of that of anyone on a forum, and it says basically this "split" is a tempest in a teacup. I hate to say it, but NO edition war has ever even slowed down people just getting on with playing IME. Nobody said to me "whah I won't play 2e, 1e is better, whah!" or substitute whatever editions. Frankly I just see all these questions and debates and such to be silly overall.

You will believe what you want, and that's the way the world is. Time will tell.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

In my mind, I see Weapons of Legacy as the beginning of times when it was really "not worth keeping up" with the 3.5 products coming out from WotC anymore.

WoL was a very good idea, with absolutely horrible execution.

Jumping the shark? Maybe not - I would actually go with some of the later Complete books. There was at least one very, very good book after WoL - Heroes of Battle. I tend to think of jumping the shark being the point where I give up on a game entirely. There have been games where the shark has been jumped with the first releases.

But as time passed it did seem that WotC had less to say for 3.X, but spent more effort saying it.

The Auld Grump