When did WotC D&D "Jump the Shark"?

[TheUltramark]

Well, considering that D&D (in whatever form) constitutes the overwhelming majority of tabletop gaming, it's not too far of a stretch to think that if D&D were to fade off the shelves, tabletop gaming would fade into complete obscurity within a few years. It's not 50 years, it's 10 years.

Sure, you have a group right now that you play with. Fast forward ten years, your current group will likely have split up for a number of reasons - mostly real life stuff like moving, new jobs, kids, etc. You want to build a new group, because, for instance, you've just moved to a new city to take that great job.

But, gamer numbers have dwindled due to lack of support. No new gamers coming into the hobby means replacement doesn't happen. Groups fade out and nothing replaces them. In the suburbs, the traditional bastion of gaming, you'd probably be able to find groups, particularly in and around large centers, but, outside of that? Good luck.

Now, maybe online virtual tabletop will keep things going for some time, but, eventually, the number of people dropping out of the hobby will mean that even if you personally want to game, you won't be able to find anyone you want to game with.

That's the danger in having no support for the hobby.

To give a example, try finding a group of people to play Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Or Metamorphasis Alpha. Or Star Frontiers. Or the bajillion other OOP RPG's out there.

but do you really think that IF Hasbro kills D&D that nobody will step up and make fantasy role playing products????
does the artist formerly known as TSR hold the fate of fantasy role playing in its hands????
Can guys like Mike Mearls, James Wyatt, Chris Perkins, and Andy Collins not either go work for another exsisting company, or even start their own????

TWA went out of business...people still fly

 

[billd91]

TWA went out of business...people still fly

Stop a random person on the street and ask them to name a nerdy fantasy game NOT on the computer. See if any of them, who can answer, say anything other that Dungeons and Dragons. Now ask them to name more than one airline.

Dungeons and Dragons is a high-profile entry point into a niche hobby. It usually takes up the most space on your average non-gaming bookstore that also happens to carry RPGs. It's the most visible and well known RPG.

Personally, I'm not convinced that having one game/company of that stature is a good thing for the hobby, but it's what we've got and it has served reasonably well over the years. Remove it and that's a serious blow to the hobby's visibility and casual recruitment until or unless something can replace it.

 

[Stormonu]

Well, the D&D SRD is public domain, so even if WotC were to stop production of D&D proper, I think the game would continue to live on.

I mean, games like chess, checkers and the like have survived without a big publisher backing them. So long as the game remains being played, there is a good chance it will live on past the death, dismemberment or change of scope of its cuurrent copyright holder.

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

But I'm wondering is this: at what point did things really begin to go down hill?

WotC lost me at 3.5. I was already growing dissatisfied with 3.0; 3.5 was the tipping point where I said "enough" and started re-evaluating what I wanted from D&D. However, I did still give WotC some money by buying PDFs of older edition stuff...until they quit selling those. These days they aren't selling anything I'm interested in.

While we're at it, is there any turning the ship around or is a new edition in the near future inevitable?

I'm not interested in 4e, so there's no turning that around. I also doubt that a new edition would be to my tastes: WotC's preferred approach to D&D and my preferred approach to D&D have been getting farther and farther apart. I don't see that trend turning around with a new edition. (If a new edition does come out, I'll check it out, just like I did with 4e, but I don't have high hopes.)

 

[Hussar]

Funny, but I started in a small town with no comic book store, let alone a FLGS, where no one played D&D or had even heard of it AFAIK, yet I managed to find players, and I managed (as I later learned) to inspire another to take up DMing and found a gaming group whose first encounter with D&D was seeing me read the Holmes Basic book in the school library. D&D then, where I was, was less of a blip than D&D would be were it shelved 10 years now.

This would be in the early 80's when D&D was at the height of its popularity no?

I sure had no trouble starting a game in Basic Training. I had people offering to polish my boots and make my bunk so that they could play.

You managed to find gamers in the highest concentration of gamer demographics outside of prison? Shock.

I had no trouble starting a game anywhere I've ever lived.....big city, small town, no difference. It has never been a case with me of having too few players to choose from, even when the potential pool had never played a role-playing game before.

I have little doubt that, if D&D had been off the shelves for 10 years, and you plonked me down just about anywhere, I could raise interest in any game I chose to run. And I have little doubt that, a year later, it will again be a case of me deciding whether or not to let other players join, rather than wondering where to scare some players up from.

And, just to be clear, when I say "little doubt" I mean "none whatsoever".

And I'm just some guy. I'm sure that there are much, much better GMs than I am. I don't cater to players. I am willing to say No. I let the dice fall where they may. I choose what I am willing to run, and what kinds of characters I am willing to allow into the game.

If I can get a game, anywhere, and build it into more of a question of how to solve the "too many players for the available seats" problem, I am pretty sure that any halfway decent GM can do the same.

YMMV.


RC

Well, considering how many posts we see right now, of people who would like to game but can't find a group, I'd say that you're probably stretching things a bit to say you can find a group no matter what.

Obviously it's not quite as easy as you are seeming to claim here to get a group together and keep it going.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I think it is like most things. Some people are good at digging up a group to play with and other people aren't so good at that. It seems to me there ARE quite a lot of people out there who would play if they were presented with a game to join and a bit of encouragement. Whether that task is easy or not just depends on the person. RC maybe has a knack for that.

 

[Raven Crowking]

This would be in the early 80's when D&D was at the height of its popularity no?

This would be spring of 1980, following getting Holmes for my brother for Christmas 1979 -- which required an hour's drive to a larger population centre.

I don't know when the height of D&D's popularity was (or is), but I do know no one was playing it in Harland, Wisconsin that year that wasn't connected to me directly or indirectly. The other DM available that first year (Frank) later told me that he learned of the game by seeing me with the book in the library, as mentioned upthread.

So, no, it had nothing to do with having a major corporation behind me, and had everything to do with running a fun game that made people want to join in.

You managed to find gamers in the highest concentration of gamer demographics outside of prison? Shock.

Is it the highest concentration? Really? What do you base that on?

IME, there are more gamers among university students, for example.

Of course, 9/10ths of all statistics are just made up. 7/8ths of all people know that.

Well, considering how many posts we see right now, of people who would like to game but can't find a group, I'd say that you're probably stretching things a bit to say you can find a group no matter what.

Obviously it's not quite as easy as you are seeming to claim here to get a group together and keep it going.

It is for me.

As I said, though, YMMV.


RC

 

[Nagol]

Well, considering how many posts we see right now, of people who would like to game but can't find a group, I'd say that you're probably stretching things a bit to say you can find a group no matter what.

Obviously it's not quite as easy as you are seeming to claim here to get a group together and keep it going.

IME, someone enthusiastic about the game who is willing to DM is almost always able to find a group.

I've started a bunch of groups 'cold' -- most weren't even D&D -- Holmes D&D, Aftermath, CHAMPIONS (twice), and Justice Inc.

Often, those looking for a game fruitlessly want to play, not run. That is harder to come by.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Re: finding a group

I was an army brat, so I had to move every couple of years, so I have some insight on finding groups.

I picked up D&D in 1977 in Aurora, CO...and a year later, I was in the tiny town of Manhattan, KS. I found a small group in my neighborhood, and one at school...which I helped merge.

In 1982, I moved to Irving, TX (part of the Dallas/Ft. Worth Metroplex) and found another small group at school- a couple of whom I still game with- and started a gaming club at my private (Catholic) school.

College was in San Antonio- a had to find a new group and did by asking my buddies. Law school in Austin had me checking with my local game stores for leads, and found one to which I belonged for 3 years.

Returning to the Dallas area, my group was all away at various schools of their own, so I had to find yet another group. Yet again, I turned to my FLGS and found gamers in search of new players. I played in a few groups...and then my old buddies started trickling back to the Metroplex. They happened to have met some other gamers in the area- including a guy from my HS whom I didn't know was a gamer- and I joined that group.

In most of those groups, I joined as a player, but eventually GMed something.

So, I have to say, having had to find new groups in several different cities, large and small: look harder. Especially ask at your FLGS. If there is no FLGS, hang out in the gaming section of a bookstore and ask another patron. Check out the local college campus.

And yes, be willing to start a group and maybe even run a game.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Reading the recent review of Gloomwrought, I have to admit that I am cautiously optimistic about the product. I fully intend to pick this one up, and to use it.

If WotC has jumped the shark (which I am not at all sure is the case), it may just be possible for them to "jump back" (as it were).

It does seem to me that WotC is following these threads, and has made some positive changes to product presentation as a result.

Now, where is my Ruins of the Forbidden City boxed set, Wizards? Huh? Where is it? Huh? (Not kidding here; I'd pay good money for it!)



RC