When do Bards get new spells?

[Herzog]

Just spotted the Lyric Spell feat, which allows you to use bardic music uses to cast spells.
Suppose you gain a level where you get Spells Per Day: 0 / Spells Known 2.(and you don't have bonus spells from high stats)
Can you select spells known at this level, using bardic music to cast them? or do you have to wait a level (until you get at least 1 spell per day from 'normal' progression)

What about when you get a stat increase halfway such a level (by reading a tome, for instance) that suddenly gives you bonus spells.
Do you 'suddenly' gain access to the spells?
Or did you 'know' them anyway, just couldn't cast them?

Herzog

 

[Ilium]

I don't know the details of Lyric Spell, but here's my take on it:

The SRD says that you gain the spells known only if you get a bonus spell of that level. So I would say Lyric Spell does not let you know or cast a spell of that level, because you don't have the stat.

Also by the RAW, I'd say that boosting the stat before your next level does you no good. However, I would allow it in my game, since it seems reasonable, even if not RAW. Otherwise, if you never take another level of bard, you would never get that spell level, which seems unfair.

 

[Nifft]

The SRD says that you gain the spells known only if you get a bonus spell of that level. So I would say Lyric Spell does not let you know or cast a spell of that level, because you don't have the stat.

This is also what I get from the SRD.

Take Bard 8, it's a good level overall. Level 9 is when you should move into Warblade (or whatever).

Cheers, -- N

 

[green slime]

This is also what I get from the SRD.

Take Bard 8, it's a good level overall. Level 9 is when you should move into Warblade (or whatever).

Cheers, -- N

When do you get time to sleep, Nifft? You've got even more posts than Umbran...

 

[Nifft]

When do you get time to sleep, Nifft? You've got even more posts than Umbran...

I sleep 4-6 hours most nights. More on the weekends.

But I'm not even close to the top posters around here.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Herzog]

Nifft,

I am planning on taking Bard 8. The question here is unrelated to the 'what to do with my bard' thread in that it assumes 'normal' bard spell progression. That's why I started a new thread.

The point is, normally you don't care if you 'know' spells of a level that you can't cast yet.
Being able to cast spells of a certain level is the moment you become interested.

By the (core) RAW, that only happens if you have bonus spells from high casting stat.

Lyric spell introduces another way in which you could theoratically cast spells of that level.
The core rules couldn't have anticipated this addition, so the question becomes whether we should interpret 'bonus spells' in a way that would include all methods in which you can cast spells that you know, or that we should interpret bonus spells literally. (excluding all other methods of increasing nr of spells per day).

Also, as stated in my first post, increasing my stat halfway a level (with an inherent (sp?) bonus) would introduce the same question: can I now cast spells of that level, or do I have to wait until my next levelup?

Herzog

 

[Nifft]

At most new bard levels, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: The Bard.

To me, this indicates that the only times you get new spells known are when you gain a level. That's my RAW answer.

DM kindness may vary.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Herzog]

Summerizing:

1. You get new spells known when you gain a level. How many is indicated in the accompanying 'spells known' table.
2. How many spells you can cast per day of each level is indicated in the accompanying 'spells per day' table.
3. If the spells known table indicates '-', you can't cast spells of that level
4. If the spells per day table indicates '-', you can't cast spells of that level
5. If the spells per day table indicates '0', you can cast 0 spells of that level, plus any bonus spells you might get from high ability score.
6. The Lyric Spell Feat allows you to use spells you know using bardic music uses instead of spell slots.

so far so good.
7. If the spells per day table indicates '0', you don't know spells of that level unless you have a high enough ability score to grant bonus spells of that level.

I'm saying point 7 is a too literal interpretation of the rules.
It had no impact on the game untill now, because if you're not able to cast spells of a certain level, you could care less whether you know them or not.

In my opinion, ignoring point 7 is somewhere halfway houserule and re-interpretation of RAW.
In any case, it's what I'm going to try and convince the DM of.

Herzog

 

[Nifft]

7. If the spells per day table indicates '0', you don't know spells of that level unless you have a high enough ability score to grant bonus spells of that level.

I'm saying point 7 is a too literal interpretation of the rules.

Ooo, actually, here's a bit more ammo for you: there is an explicit conflict in that rule! Note the bolded part:

The bard’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A bard begins play knowing four 0-level spells of your choice. At most new bard levels, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: The Bard. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a bard knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table: The Bard are fixed.)

Hope that helps, -- N

 

[Herzog]

Yes, thanks.

I just noticed that myself.

Let's see how convincing I can be....

(oh well. If I am going to take levels in LT, the earliest I can take that feat will be at lvl 12, a lot of time to convince people.... unless I can first convince them to adopt the retraining rules.....)

Herzog