When do Outsiders actually DIE (for real)

[TimSmith]

I am sure it says in the rules somewhere, but I can't find it. So, when do demons etc actually get killed permanently and when do they merely get sent back to the home plane?

One of my players killed a Bebilith single handed last session and I had it disappear on death. It made for a bit of amusement when the others refused to believe him as he had no evidence when they breathlessly arrived to help him . Now it won't matter to the game, but I just wondered whether it was supposed to disappear or not?

(The Bebilith lived in the bottom of a deep sinkhole, guarding an entrance to the underdark. It has lived there for quite a while, attracted to the old ruin at the bottom of the hole and the miasma of despair that surrounds it.)

 

[Shin Okada]

Basically, whether something is outsider or not does not matter. Usually, only summoned creatures, and something came to current plane via astral projection, will be sent back to his original plane when killed. Otherwise, a creature is killed or destroyed when killed or destroyed. (There are a lot of exceptions such as Ghost, Lich, Vampire, etc.)

But if that thing is "permanently" dead is another issue. Life of a creature could be taken back via various spells and other magical ways.

 

[Staffan]

By the core rules, if you kill something and it isn't a summoned critter and doesn't have any ability that says otherwise, it's dead. Eberron has an interesting notion that says that when an outsider is killed, a new one will eventually spawn to take its place, but that's a new one with a potentially different personality. Using that notion, the only way to really reduce the number of fiends (or celestials) around is to bind them, not to kill them.

 

[TimSmith]

Uh huh.

So, it looks like I must be getting the (wrong) idea from 1st/2nd edition, then.

From what you are saying, the Bebilith corpse should have remained lying there, but if it had summoned allies from the Abyss, then they would have disappeared back to whence they came on "death." Sounds like summoned creatures have more fun, as they get to murder hapless locals whilst returning safely home on being defeated!

 

[werk]

But if that thing is "permanently" dead is another issue. Life of a creature could be taken back via various spells and other magical ways.

Depends on if it is native or not really...

SRD-
Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be.

As far as the outsider remaining behind as a corpse, it depends if it is summoned or not.

 

[Nareau]

I remember Monte Cook addressing this on his messageboards a while ago. He basically suggested that if a creature "travelled" to the Prime (via some kind of portal, gate, etc) then they were bringing their physical body along with them. Kill that body, and the creature truly dies.

But if the monster had been summoned, it essentially was just manifesting a body in the Prime. Kill that manifested body, and it just disappears. The real creature is returned to its home plane (or wherever it was before being summoned).

I really like this explanation. And I'm pretty sure it jibes with the rules 100%.

Spider

 

[werk]

I really like Monte Cook.

Good stuff.

 

[Shin Okada]

Summoning and calling are completely different phenomenon. That is why my cleric does not need to feel guilty on letting summoned Celestial Dogs walk on mine fields (ie, trap-full dungeon corridors).

 

[moritheil]

Summoning and calling are completely different phenomenon. That is why my cleric does not need to feel guilty on letting summoned Celestial Dogs walk on mine fields (ie, trap-full dungeon corridors).

That still sounds pretty painful. I guess your cleric believes in cruelty in the name of good.

On another note, the distinction in 3.5 is indeed one between summoned and called things. The DM typically should decide beforehand if things are "really there" or not.

 

[Celebrim]

Well, look at it this way, when you kill a character they don't really die either. If they did, ressurection couldn't actually work.

Instead, when you kill a character, the thing that makes that character themselves goes 'elsewhere'. Where 'elsewhere' happens to be depends on the campaign cosmology.

Now, why should it be any different for an outsider?

Well, the answer is that it probably could be very different, or it might not be any different at all, but that that is an answer that I think you would have to decide for yourself.

I follow the Call of Cthulu convention that the presense of anything really evil is usually detectable by a foul stench. If a character had kill a Bebilith (or equivalent) in my campaign, then the body would certainly disappear quite quickly, but first it would spend a few rounds dissolving into a foul bubbling miasma which would fill the area with stench, and then the miasma would sink into the surrounding surface. The area would be considered to have been permanently Desecrated (per the spell), and like the dark area on Dagobah it would be considered a place 'strong in the dark side of the force.. a domain of evil' until such time as someone got out some Holy Water and cast a counter-consecration. The area would radiate Overwhelming evil for a period of several days, and lingering ammounts pretty much until someone did something to clean up the mess. So, while the body would be gone, there would be alot of evidence that something foul had been there.

None of this would have anything at all to do with my position on what happen to the fiends spirit. It's just what I consider appropriate flavor. As such, I don't think you are wrong to have the body disappear regardless of what your position is on such high minded concepts.