When do you throw initiative?

[Water Bob]

We had an interesting discussion come up during yesterday's game surround when it is appropriate to throw initiative.

Consider two gladiators entering a ring. I had both characters throw nish, then, in nish order, allowed each character to move.

To my thinking, the combat started as soon as the two gladitors entered the combat space ready to fight.

But, one of my players had an interesting comment. Before I tell you that, though, let me tell you how he came to his thought: The gladiator ring was so big that it was too far to Charge a foe when a gladiator first entered. But, if he move in a few squares, that put him in ranged to be charged by the other gladitor.

My player felt that this allowed the character who lost the nish roll to "steal initiative" because: You've either got a Mexican Stand-off, where neither character will move closer to his foe, opening himself up to the charge; Or, the one of the characters does make a move, then receives the charge (I argued it would be a good time to Ready a weapon to received a charge, then.)

My player felt like, if the character with nish moves and allows the other character to charge him, that the character who lost the nish toss actually "steals the initiative" because he gets first blow due to the charge.

My player's argument is that I threw for Initiative too early. He says I should have stayed in scenes longer, as the players move around not acutally in formal combat yet. Then, as soon as one of them declared a charge, initiative would be thrown.

This way, once the charge is declared (and is the "first aggressive action", signaling the start of combat), the target of the charge can win nish and move behind a barrier, therefore making the charge impossible. Or, he can lose the nish toss, and them be charged by the character with inititive.

In this way, my player thinks "initiative can't be stolen by using the charge".





One of the main reasons that I threw nish as the gladiators entered the ring is that both were ready for combat, and I couldn't see either as being "flatfooted"--which will happen if I go with what my player says. So, under my player's method, if I threw nish that late, one character could conceivably win nish, charge his foe, and his foe would be flatfooted (even though the character has entered a gladitorial combat ring).





So, you tell me. I think both sides have a strong argument. On which side does your opinion lay?

And--a second question. At what point would your throw nish in the gladitorial combat described above? At what point do you normally throw nish in your normal games?

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

First, I'm not familiar with this term "nish", but if it is anything like "gish", I dislike it already.

Second -- roll initiative when you, the DM, asks them to roll initiative. I'd have them do that regardless of when or how the combat scenarios begins, and the winner completes his or her action first. One player may say "I charge my foe", but he doesn't automatically get initiative -- it may be that despite the PC's intention, the enemy is more agile, more perceptive, or otherwise reacts more quickly, and thus still responds to the charge more quickly. Overall, it will average out to benefit the players as much as they feel it hurts them.

In your gladiator example, I would have asked for initiative as soon as it was clear there would be a fight (stepping into the ring is good enough). If that means player 1 steps behind a barrier and negates player 2's charge, so be it -- in no event can player 2 "steal initiative" unless player 1 delays or otherwise holds his action.

There's also surprise, which you can always adjudicate to provide the "unsurprised" side to have a free standard action, on your call.

 

[Water Bob]

First, I'm not familiar with this term "nish", but if it is anything like "gish", I dislike it already.

It means "initiative", which I'm sure you figured out. And, you're not alone. It seems to lodge in a few people's craw on this board when I use it. But, hey, I like it, so I use it.

I don't know what "gish" means. Maybe you'll enlighten me.

In your gladiator example, I would have asked for initiative as soon as it was clear there would be a fight (stepping into the ring is good enough).

So, you agree with my initial take on it.

The one thing that the player said that made some sense to me was the description of the Mexican Standoff: Both gladiators roll nish and enter the ring on their turns. Let's say the ring is 80' in diameter. That means that a gladitor can't charge on round 1 unless his opponent moves into the ring by 20'. If he only moves into the ring by 10', he's out of charge range unless his opponent has some Feat that allows him to move farther.

So, what we get is both characters circling at a long distance, each not wanting to be the victim of a charge (especially if they don't have a weapon that they can use to set against the charge).

Thus...who moves first deeper into the ring and allows themself to be the target of a charge?

That's not a bad point the player is making.

There's also surprise, which you can always adjudicate to provide the "unsurprised" side to have a free standard action, on your call.

Under d20 3.5, you can't have surprise if both sides are aware of each other.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

So, you tell me. I think both sides have a strong argument. On which side does your opinion lay?

I believe you almost got it right, and compounding this is the fact that your players are not using actions that are reflecting what they want their characters to be doing.

Firstly, initiative should be thrown when a player becomes aware of their opponent becoming an opponent. It is to indicate when combatants are no longer flat-footed (that is oblivious that they are in danger). Both your gladiators would have been aware of this, perhaps even before they stepped into the arena. I would say as soon as eye contact between the two is made, initiative should be thrown.

Secondly, your players are not conveying their actions correctly. In your example, what they should be doing is using a move action to move, and their standard action to ready: either "If I get charged, then I'm moving to cover" or "If I get charged, then I'm setting my spear" or "If I get charged, then I attack the charger". Rinse repeat, until one of the combatants charges.
If your players are making double moves, they are effectively spending all their focus moving to where they think they will be safe rather than preparing to react to what their opponent is doing. By not readying, they are leaving themselves open.

This then becomes your Mexican stand-off until one or the other has the gumption to charge - and so you need to provide incentives such as the sun being in the defenders eyes, positioning being important because of terrain or obstacles, distractions from the crowd (booing until the first charge where the roar of the crowd gives a morale bonus to the attack and so on).

And--a second question. At what point would your throw nish in the gladitorial combat described above? At what point do you normally throw nish in your normal games?

Where did you get the expression "nish"? I have only ever seen you using this term on these boards... and I've been active on the boards for a little while. Specifically to answer your question though, when one opponent becomes aware that the other is an opponent. In your situation above, this would be upon eye contact between the two (or if one was deliberately avoiding eye contact, this in itself is a reason for rolling initiative).

Interesting question once again.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[JamesonCourage]

Well, kind of off topic, but I roll initiative for everyone (well, Enemy X, Y, and Z... literally those letters) and have the players roll initiative at the beginning of each session. That way, when a fight comes up, the tension doesn't drain out while we roll initiative (and then I plug in NPC A to Enemy X, or Monster C to Enemy Z from earlier).

As for declaring initiative? Well, I probably would when hostilities are clear. If the rules are "as soon as you step into the arena, it's on" then I'd count initiative when they step in.

If Conan is the same as 3.5 in this regard, remind your player that he can ready an action to charge. He doesn't get the +2 bonus to attack (he still takes the hit to AC), and he can only move his base speed (not double it). It's called a partial charge.

What this allows, though, is for him to move out 30 feet, and ready a charge if the enemy comes within range (probably 30-40 feet). When the enemy charges, he's interrupted by the first player's readied action, which let's him charge the enemy (after factoring in the -2 AC).

And, as far as I know, "gish" means some sort of hybrid warrior / spellcaster. Not sure why it's used, but I think any build that combines the two concepts is a "gish". I might be wrong.

Last side note: your players are in an arena? Sounds like fun!

As always, play what you like

 

[Celebrim]

We've had a long discussion on this topic before. There are many different opinions.

In my game initiative is thrown whenever a player requests it, signifying that he's subtly or openly readying himself for combat against an observed threat. This prevents you from being flatfooted against someone who've you've clearly observed approaching you.

As a DM I ask for initiative whenever the sitaution is ambigious as to the intentions of the other party. If a group of armed men ride out of the woods four hundred yards down the road, I may request initiative because its not clear (but quite likely) that these people could be a threat. Neither side may ever declare an attack, but if need be the game always moves by the rules. No one can ever steal the initiative by metagaming.

Now the situation your friend is concerned about is a bit different. He's worried about the person going first actually going second because of a counter charge. There are some situations where this is a serious worry, but in general there are many things the person controlling the initiative can do:

1) He can ready a weapon to recieve a charge.
2) He can ready an attack if someone enters his threat zone.
3) He can respond to being charged by declaring a full attack, effectively 'taking back' the lead in number of attacks recieved.
4) He can declare a full defensive stance to try to negate the charge, and then respond into the foes -2 AC because of the charge.

In some situations the 'mexican stand off' happens because neither side thinks its to their advantage to charge or even close (who wants to trade 1 attack for a full attack). In that case it can be good to have a spring attack option (or an option that let's you ready a charge, which some systems allow standard), out range the opponent, or to use a secondary weapon like a whip, net, or off-hand throwing weapon to let you win the sabre dancing and force the knife fight (assuming that's your goal).

Plus, in my game its not always clear what the movement rate of the foe is because movement is a skill. If you think you have the superior movement rate and you want to charge, you can edge in hoping that you have the edge in speed that will prevent the opponent from countercharging you.

 

[Water Bob]

Firstly, initiative should be thrown when a player becomes aware of their opponent becoming an opponent.

I'm not sure I totally agree with that. I like to keep the game in "scenes" as long as possible. But, at the point where agression is probable (as with entering the gladiator ring) or imminent (as when a player or NPC declares an attack), that's where I think nish should be thrown.

It is to indicate when combatants are no longer flat-footed (that is oblivious that they are in danger).

Agreed.

Secondly, your players are not conveying their actions correctly. In your example, what they should be doing is using a move action to move, and their standard action to ready: either "If I get charged, then I'm moving to cover" or "If I get charged, then I'm setting my spear" or "If I get charged, then I attack the charger". Rinse repeat, until one of the combatants charges.

This is extremely helpful! Thanks!

I'm still learning 3.5. We've only had 4 game sessions. I'm an old hand at 1E and 2E (but that was a long time ago). 3.5 E is new to all of us (my group). We're trying to "get it right".

I see I'm not using the Ready action properly (or, at all ). That should have been my response to my player when he spoke of the character who lost nish being able to get the first strike in by Charging (what he called "stealing the nish").

Again...that's a very helpful comment. Thanks.

Where did you get the expression "nish"?

One of my players, long ago (decades), starting using it. And, it stuck with our group. I'm not sure where he got it, but I've seen it a few times on the net, on different forums, from time to time. So, I know he didn't just "make it up".

He probably heard it somewhere playing with a different group.

I do find it strange how some people take such offense to it. Cracks me up--the irony, you know? Groups use all sorts of short-cut words, and even the game, itself, uses acronyms (remember THAC0?) and such, that is seems strange to me that some people would have such a reaction to "initiative" being shortened to "nish".

But, they do.

Interesting question once again.

Thank you, sir. I actually get paid by the board to come up with topics like this and keep the conversation lively. I'm a forum shill, so to speak.

(Just kidding, of course. )

Well, kind of off topic, but I roll initiative for everyone (well, Enemy X, Y, and Z... literally those letters) and have the players roll initiative at the beginning of each session.

Interesting. So, you have the players roll nish at the beginning of each session and use it for any/all combat that happens during that session? Hm. That is interesting. I don't think it would fly in my group, though.

That way, when a fight comes up, the tension doesn't drain out while we roll initiative (and then I plug in NPC A to Enemy X, or Monster C to Enemy Z from earlier).

And, the reason I don't think it would fly is that, in my short experience with 3.5 and much longer experience gaming over the years, my players like the nish roll. Heck, I've got one right now asking me to roll nish every combat round like we used to do using the optional rule 2E (I like 3.5's method of rolling it once at the start of each combat.)

I find that there's a sense of anticipation when nish is thrown.

If Conan is the same as 3.5 in this regard, remind your player that he can ready an action to charge. He doesn't get the +2 bonus to attack (he still takes the hit to AC), and he can only move his base speed (not double it). It's called a partial charge.

Wow. That's exceptionally helpful, too. Thanks. I will tell my players this. They're not used to the "Ready" action because it's a new concept in 3.5. There was not such a rule in 1E or 2E.

Thanks for that.

And, as far as I know, "gish" means some sort of hybrid warrior / spellcaster. Not sure why it's used, but I think any build that combines the two concepts is a "gish". I might be wrong.

Hm... Never heard of it, before.

Last side note: your players are in an arena? Sounds like fun!

So far, the campaign has been exceptional, overall. During yesterday's game session, I wasn't as "on" as I have been during the other sessions. Therefore, what should have been an EXCEPTIONAL game turned out to be a servicable, OK, "filler" type game.

But, we're also spending some game time learning the rules. New situations are popping up, and we've got to struggle through the learning curve.

I changed the circumstances of the event that happened in my game to both make the example shorter and serve the question in the OP better. But, if you are interested in the actual game event that this question sprouted from, look here: At This Post.

As always, play what you like

Of course!

 

[JamesonCourage]

Interesting. So, you have the players roll nish at the beginning of each session and use it for any/all combat that happens during that session? Hm. That is interesting. I don't think it would fly in my group, though.

No, once the first combat ends, we roll initiative for the next combat (since the end of combat is wrapping up tension, so it's a good place to roll it for us). I probably should have clarified that.

And, the reason I don't think it would fly is that, in my short experience with 3.5 and much longer experience gaming over the years, my players like the nish roll. Heck, I've got one right now asking me to roll nish every combat round like we used to do using the optional rule 2E (I like 3.5's method of rolling it once at the start of each combat.)

I find that there's a sense of anticipation when nish is thrown.

There definitely can be that sense. "I need to roll high so I can mess this mofo up" is a common enough feeling that I see the appeal to waiting. I just didn't like the "[long lead up to fight], [dramatic story fight about to happen], [interrupted to roll initiative]" feel of things. It felt out of place to me. But, I definitely don't mind it at the beginning, either. No GM I've played with rolls initiative at the beginning like I do.

Wow. That's exceptionally helpful, too. Thanks. I will tell my players this. They're not used to the "Ready" action because it's a new concept in 3.5. There was not such a rule in 1E or 2E.

Thanks for that.

It's pretty useful. Our group didn't know about it for about a year of playing.

Hm... Never heard of it, before.

I'm not really a fan of it, but I don't dislike it. Off topic again: one of my friend's nick names is Nish. I don't call him it, but he has a whole social circle of some 30 people who do. I showed him one of your titles here once that mentioned Nish and he was super curious.

[/QUOTE]So far, the campaign has been exceptional, overall. During yesterday's game session, I wasn't as "on" as I have been during the other sessions. Therefore, what should have been an EXCEPTIONAL game turned out to be a servicable, OK, "filler" type game.

But, we're also spending some game time learning the rules. New situations are popping up, and we've got to struggle through the learning curve.

I changed the circumstances of the event that happened in my game to both make the example shorter and serve the question in the OP better. But, if you are interested in the actual game event that this question sprouted from, look here: At This Post.

I'll probably check it out sometime. Love Conan, so the idea of a Cimmerian barbarian in an arena is greatly appealing to me. Never played the RPG, though. I've heard your glowing reports, however!

Of course!

 

[Lanefan]

In this particular situation I'd have abandoned normal initiative entirely until they actually engaged in melee. Before that, have each player pass you a note saying what their PC is doing for that action/turn/whatever and then resolve those things simultaneously. If they both charge, they meet in the middle and both get a swing in. If one charges and the other does not, they're both within charge range for next round. If neither charges, it's still a guessing game...much like fighters in real life, looking for a chance to move in.

Much more realistic, and it gets around the standoff problem.

Lan-"sometimes throwing out the rulebook is the best rule"-efan

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

And, as far as I know, "gish" means some sort of hybrid warrior / spellcaster. Not sure why it's used, but I think any build that combines the two concepts is a "gish". I might be wrong.

More specifically, it's a githyanki fighter/magic-user. Any other usage shall be punished severely by knights who say "Nish".