When do you throw initiative?

[Water Bob]

No, once the first combat ends, we roll initiative for the next combat (since the end of combat is wrapping up tension, so it's a good place to roll it for us). I probably should have clarified that.

Ah. I see.

There definitely can be that sense. "I need to roll high so I can mess this mofo up" is a common enough feeling that I see the appeal to waiting. I just didn't like the "[long lead up to fight], [dramatic story fight about to happen], [interrupted to roll initiative]" feel of things. It felt out of place to me. But, I definitely don't mind it at the beginning, either. No GM I've played with rolls initiative at the beginning like I do.

Have you considered pre-rolling all the NPC nish throws? You could just tack a note next to each monster or NPC showing it's nish roll the first time it enters combat.

Then, when a combat situation occurs, you only have to roll the nish for the players. The players get that "anticipation" without the "long lead up to a fight" you mention.

I don't think I like the player knowing where he'll be, nish-wise, in a fight, too far ahead of where the fight will occur. It seems too much of an invitation to "meta-game" and use information outside of the game to his advantage--especially in planning ahead.

On the other side of things, I do see where rolling early and forgetting about it lends itself to smoother story telling.

Question: If you don't have a combat encounter, do the throws made at the beginning of that game session roll over to the next? In other words, does a character keep his nish throw until he uses it? Or, if there is no combat encounter, does a player get to re-roll his nish at the start of the next game?

Love Conan, so the idea of a Cimmerian barbarian in an arena is greatly appealing to me. Never played the RPG, though. I've heard your glowing reports, however!

Yeah, I love the game--the actual rules and the "universe".

From a rules standpoint, I haven't seen another 3.5E clone that I like better, and I've looked at a ton of them, including Pathfinder, Theives World, Game of Thrones, The Black Company, regular D&D, etc.

The guys who wrote the 2E Conan game really hit the nail on the head, imo. They seem to "fix" everything I thought was "wrong" with standard 3.5 D&D, and I think they did a better job than the Pathfinder guys did. I'd like to use these rules in other universes.

And, speaking of the universe, I am a huge Conan fan. Love the books, even the pastiches. Played the MMO. And, I even got started reading the Conan comics--the first time I've read comics since I was in Jr. High School, riding my bike to the local 7-11 to pick up a Coke and the latest X-Men issue.

The game has its detractors, like all games do, but, again, I think it's fantastic.

 

[Water Bob]

More specifically, it's a githyanki fighter/magic-user.

Ah, I see. Interesting.

I haven't played normal D&D in decades--way before 3rd edition ever came out. I don't even play standard D&D now. It stands to reason why I would have never heard of "gish".

Any other usage shall be punished severely by knights who say "Nish".

A Monty Python reference? This one gets my award for the best "dig" at my use of the term "nish".



Ya don't, at all, see the irony in being pedantic about the use of the term "gish" while at the same time knocking the term "nish"?

I think that's incredibly funny.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

I haven't played normal D&D in decades--way before 3rd edition ever came out. I don't even play standard D&D now. It stands to reason why I would have never heard of "gish".

Well, in all fairness, the term "gish" (meaning "githyanki fighter/M-U") has been around at least since 1e Fiend Folio. It's not an especially new term!
I don't know how long it's been used more generically, though. It does, however, scrape my sensitive ears used that way.

 

[JamesonCourage]

Ah. I see.

Have you considered pre-rolling all the NPC nish throws? You could just tack a note next to each monster or NPC showing it's nish roll the first time it enters combat.

Then, when a combat situation occurs, you only have to roll the nish for the players. The players get that "anticipation" without the "long lead up to a fight" you mention.

I did consider it, but we decided to all roll together. Both have merit, and I can definitely see doing it the way you suggest to play up the anticipation. There is something to said for, "he points at you, and draws his sword. Roll initiative."

[/QUOTE]I don't think I like the player knowing where he'll be, nish-wise, in a fight, too far ahead of where the fight will occur. It seems too much of an invitation to "meta-game" and use information outside of the game to his advantage--especially in planning ahead.

On the other side of things, I do see where rolling early and forgetting about it lends itself to smoother story telling.[/QUOTE]

I see what you mean here, but it hasn't been a problem for my group. I don't think that it's universal in it's application, as the meta issue will vary from group to group.

In some scenarios, the method used is a boon. Other times, you'd get more tension from rolling initiative moments before the fight itself.

Question: If you don't have a combat encounter, do the throws made at the beginning of that game session roll over to the next? In other words, does a character keep his nish throw until he uses it? Or, if there is no combat encounter, does a player get to re-roll his nish at the start of the next game?

We reroll at the beginning of the next session. I could see doing it either way, but we do reroll each session.

Yeah, I love the game--the actual rules and the "universe".

From a rules standpoint, I haven't seen another 3.5E clone that I like better, and I've looked at a ton of them, including Pathfinder, Theives World, Game of Thrones, The Black Company, regular D&D, etc.

The guys who wrote the 2E Conan game really hit the nail on the head, imo. They seem to "fix" everything I thought was "wrong" with standard 3.5 D&D, and I think they did a better job than the Pathfinder guys did. I'd like to use these rules in other universes.

And, speaking of the universe, I am a huge Conan fan. Love the books, even the pastiches. Played the MMO. And, I even got started reading the Conan comics--the first time I've read comics since I was in Jr. High School, riding my bike to the local 7-11 to pick up a Coke and the latest X-Men issue.

The game has its detractors, like all games do, but, again, I think it's fantastic.

Yeah, the universe is pretty cool. I ended up making my own 3.5 clone after poking around. Basically gutted a lot of stuff to make it how I liked it (it's also classless, which is a plus to some, and a flaw to others).

The Conan game looks cool enough. The combat maneuvers like "To The Hilt" look cool though. Seems very cinematic.

Thanks for the conversation, I've enjoyed it And, as always, play what you like

 

[Water Bob]

Well, in all fairness, the term "gish" (meaning "githyanki fighter/M-U") has been around at least since 1e Fiend Folio. It's not an especially new term!
I don't know how long it's been used more generically, though. It does, however, scrape my sensitive ears used that way.

I've been using the term "nish" for as long. We were using it when the 1E Fiend Folio came out.

I don't remember fighting an Githyanki's that often back then. Maybe once, because they were on the cover of the book. But, if we did, it was a long time ago.

And, with all the people I've played with, I've never heard them called "gish".

Although I like it and will probably call them that if I ever play D&D again!

Thanks for the conversation, I've enjoyed it And, as always, play what you like

To The Hilt is one of the two or three Combat Maneuvers that I rule as illegal in my game (it's the only one from the core rulebook). The reason is that is mixes actual wounds with an abstract wound system, and the two don't mix well.

For example, an NPC could use To The Hilt on a player. The player would take some damage and be considered as having a sword stuck all the way through him.

Then, in one night of resting--just 8 hours--that damage can be healed.

Isn't that ridiculous that a person can have a sword through shoved completely through their torso, and they're completely healed, using only bed rest and maybe a clean bandage, after one night's rest?

Ludicrous.

Or, let's say that the character wasn't completely healed. As the game is designed (as all D&D is designed), if a character as at least 1 HP he's just as healthy and capable as he is when he has his full 80 HP.

So, the thought of a sword being thrust through the torso of a character, and the character not being dropped to 0 HP or less, is crazy to me.

So, I outlawed that manuever.



Still, there are a lot of fine maneuvers in Conan. Pantherish Twist, for example, allows a character who is flanked by two foes to roll DEX checks against them. If the character beats both of them, he twists out of the way as they attack, and the two flankers actually attack each other!

If the character wins just one of the DEX rolls, then just one attack occurs while the foe who won the DEX check still attack the character.

That's one of the fun ones.

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

I'll give you an AD&D (1e) answer.

To move up and join melee, you have two choices:
1. Close to Engage
2. Charge

If you "close to engage" you cautiously approach the enemy and begin fighting. However, no attack rolls are actually made that round: instead, you're circling, you're feinting, and you're taking your opponents measure. Melee attack rolls will begin the following round, according to that round's initiative rolls. Close to engage is a safe and conservative entry into melee engagement. If either opponent chooses this option, and neither chooses to charge, then they'll come together with neither striking decisive blows or gaining a particular advantage in the current round.

If either opponent chooses to charge, attack rolls will happen in the current round, but the initiative roll is not a factor. Instead, the weapon with the longer reach will strike first.

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

It is somewhat up to the DM to determine when intiative should be rolled, but if combat is essentially imminent and both sides are aware of each other I don't see a reason why initiative shouldn't be rolled as soon as the combatants enter the arena in the OP's gladiators example. It is then up to the players to best determine what actions their characters should take or not take based on their initiative results. If they can't figure out how to get close to their opponent without "being snaked" well... that's just how the game works. It IS possible to ready an action and thus resolve your own action first, even when your opponent "won" intiative. Initiative is weighted because normally acting first is the advantage everybody wants. But the purpose of initiative is not just to see who goes first - that's just a side effect. The purpose is more accurately said to be to determine the ORDER in which actions are to be resolved. Initiative sets up the order in which characters take their turns but it doesn't guarantee them that their actions will resolve first.

 

[Locutus Zero]

I make sure to explain to my players that rolling initiative does not mean the RPing is over and it's time to fight. It simply means that we've reached a point in the game when simply talking through our actions is not precise enough. Initiative is rolled whenever we need to get that granular with our managing of actions and time.

Two gladiators in a ring, ready to fight one another, certainly qualifies as a time when simply saying "I want to rush him before he has a chance to hit me" is not going to work, so initiative should be rolled. The only reason to wait is if the players are enjoying describing how they are raising their weapon to greet the audience, or yelling insults at the enemy, etc. It might take them out of the moment to roll initiative. But as soon as they want to start moving or doing anything of tactical significance, it's time to roll.

 

[ExploderWizard]

In this particular situation I'd have abandoned normal initiative entirely until they actually engaged in melee. Before that, have each player pass you a note saying what their PC is doing for that action/turn/whatever and then resolve those things simultaneously. If they both charge, they meet in the middle and both get a swing in. If one charges and the other does not, they're both within charge range for next round. If neither charges, it's still a guessing game...much like fighters in real life, looking for a chance to move in.

Much more realistic, and it gets around the standoff problem.

Lan-"sometimes throwing out the rulebook is the best rule"-efan

I can't XP you right now but this sounds like its made of pure win!

 

[Dausuul]

First off, the fact that you can delay or ready actions means there is never a benefit to losing initiative. Zugzwang is for chess, not D&D.

To the main question: The way I see it, you're always using the initiative system. It's just that most of the time, it isn't necessary to bother with it because you aren't doing things that need that kind of moment-to-moment tracking. Any time that kind of tracking becomes important is the time to roll initiative. If the answer to "When do we roll initiative?" affects the outcome of combat, always roll earlier. Likewise, if "When do we drop out of initiative?" affects the outcome, drop out later.

In the situation you describe, the logical move for the one who wins initiative is to move into charge range, then ready an action to attack. Which is better: Strike first, or strike second with +2 on your first attack? In 3E, I would usually say "strike first."

Unfortunately, if both combatants follow this logic, it does lead to a Mexican standoff. You can either do something like Lanefan suggests, or just have your standoff and see how it plays out. Whose nerve breaks first?