When do you throw initiative?

[OnlineDM]

As a DM I ask for initiative whenever the sitaution is ambigious as to the intentions of the other party. If a group of armed men ride out of the woods four hundred yards down the road, I may request initiative because its not clear (but quite likely) that these people could be a threat. Neither side may ever declare an attack, but if need be the game always moves by the rules. No one can ever steal the initiative by metagaming.

This makes total sense to me. Completely off-topic, though, it somehow conjured the following scene in my mind:

Player: I approach the king's throne, remove my hat, bow, and say, "Good morrow, sire!"
DM: Okay. Roll initiative.

I can just see the player assuming, "Oh, we're rolling initiative... the king must be trying to kill us! I attack the king!"

 

[ThirdWizard]

This is why you carry javelins into arenas.

 

[KahnyaGnorc]

Why is there such a thing as initiative? Because, in combat, the order in which action takes place matters.

So, when do you roll initiative? When said order begins to matter.

 

[Water Bob]

I've got questions, now....



First question: The situation is as detailed in the OP. Two combatants enter an arena for gladitorial combat. Both are armed with shortsword (gladius) and buckler. Both wear nothing but a loincloth.

The arena is 80' across.

If a character is going to Ready an action, then he can only move 5'* as he readies that action.

Since neither character wants to be the victim of a charge, both gladitors basically inch their way, 5' at a time, into the arena, each round declaring that they are reading an attack in case the other charges him.

Doesn't this result in a silly, Mexican Standoff situation?

Is there a way around this?



*And, this begs another question. According to the Ready Action, a character can move 5' and still ready an action. But, according to the Partial Charge rule, a character cannot take a 5' step in the same round as a Partial Charge.

Therefore, neither character can move and make a Partial Charge, even if they ready the action.







Second Question: Let's look at a simular situation, but transplant our two warriors out into a field. The gladiator with initiative says that he's readying a move action if he's charged. If he sees his opponent charging him, then he'll move behind a tree, breaking line of sight.

So, how does this play out?

1. Gladiator with nish Readies his move action.

2. His foe begins his charge.

3. The Gladiator move behind a large tree, putting an obstacle in his foe's path and breaking line of sight.

4. What happens to the foe now that he can no longer charge? How far can he move? Does he move to the tree and stop? Does he lose his action since he no longer has a line of sight to his target? If so, how far does he get when that happens?

 

[Dausuul]

Doesn't this result in a silly, Mexican Standoff situation? Is there a way around this?

Yes, it does; and within the rules, no, there isn't. Both gladiators will advance 5 feet, ready attack, advance 5 feet, ready attack. They will stop at 35 feet, because once you move within 30 feet your enemy can stand pat and ready a partial charge to trigger the moment you do anything at all. They will then wait at 35 feet with partial charges readied. This continues until something breaks the standoff, like the master of the games ordering crossbowmen to shoot them both if they don't start fighting RIGHT NOW.

Let's look at a simular situation, but transplant our two warriors out into a field. The gladiator with initiative says that he's readying a move action if he's charged. If he sees his opponent charging him, then he'll move behind a tree, breaking line of sight.

So, how does this play out?

1. Gladiator with nish Readies his move action.

2. His foe begins his charge.

3. The Gladiator move behind a large tree, putting an obstacle in his foe's path and breaking line of sight.

4. What happens to the foe now that he can no longer charge? How far can he move? Does he move to the tree and stop? Does he lose his action since he no longer has a line of sight to his target? If so, how far does he get when that happens?

It's really a DM judgement call. Strictly by the rules, I'd say the charging foe loses the action and doesn't move at all. However, you could reasonably argue he should be able to move up to the tree.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Assuming D&D 3.5 Rules ...

If a character is going to Ready an action, then he can only move 5'* as he readies that action.

Readying is a standard action. Accordingly, you can move up to your speed (usually 30') before readying an action. If you did not move on your turn, you can take a 5' step as part of your readied action.

Since neither character wants to be the victim of a charge, both gladitors basically inch their way, 5' at a time, into the arena, each round declaring that they are reading an attack in case the other charges him.

In which case, they eventually reach the point where the opponent can take a single move action and still make a melee attack, obviating the need for a charge.

Or, if they refuse to engage, the master of ceremonies orders the archers to encourage the fighters. Or the crowd starts throwing things, causing a Daze effect if they hit a fighter with a rock (DC 15 Reflex save to avoid).

Doesn't this result in a silly, Mexican Standoff situation?

No more so than any other time you have two people who don't actually want to fight each other.

Is there a way around this?

Have one guy say, "Screw it - I'll get a +2 to hit vs. my -2 to AC, so it's a wash - we both get a +2 to our first attack; I can take a single hit."

 

[Water Bob]

Readying is a standard action. Accordingly, you can move up to your speed (usually 30') before readying an action. If you did not move on your turn, you can take a 5' step as part of your readied action.

Ah-ha! In re-reading the rule, I see that you are correct!

Which means: A character cannot Ready a Partial Charge.

 

[Dausuul]

No more so than any other time you have two people who don't actually want to fight each other.

Or, two people who are under no strong time pressure, each want every possible advantage (as you surely would in a fight for your life), and are operating in a world where the "physics" leads to such outcomes.

The real problem here is the nature of readied actions. The way the ready rules work, if you let your opponent make the first move, you get the first attack. So, absent an irate MC with crossbowmen, there's no incentive to make the first move. No amount of squirming can get around the fact that a readied action happens before the event that triggers it.

(Incidentally, this discussion has given me some very interesting thoughts on how to approach readied actions in my own game system. I think the "gladiator problem" is a good test case for any initiative system; if two gladiators using optimal strategies end up in a Mexican standoff, the system needs work.)

 

[JamesonCourage]

Ah-ha! In re-reading the rule, I see that you are correct!

Which means: A character cannot Ready a Partial Charge.

From the SRD:

You can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge.

If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn.

With a little leniency, you can ready a partial charge. You just cannot take a 5-foot step in the same round.

So, on my turn, I'll take a move action to move out 5-30 feet. Then I'll ready a partial charge if the enemy gets within range (usually 30 feet).

Does that sound okay?

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

(Incidentally, this discussion has given me some very interesting thoughts on how to approach readied actions in my own game system. I think the "gladiator problem" is a good test case for any initiative system; if two gladiators using optimal strategies end up in a Mexican standoff, the system needs work.)

A potential workaround: if all parties to a combat ready actions, then the participant with the lowest initiative count must act first with an action other than readying an action. Actions are then resolved in reverse initiative order until all participants have acted, at which point normal initiative order is resumed.

So in the gladiator case, if both ready, then the second in the order is forced to act, which allows the first to respond first, thus preserving the advantage of winning initiative.