When does D&D stop becoming D&D?

[Hussar]

And how can you tell that?

Well, let's see:

6 stats.
Polyhedral dice
killing stuff and taking it's treasure.
books that are 90% about killing stuff and taking it's treasure and 10% the other stuff.
fantasy. With a dash of SF, horror and possibly a few other genres chucked in from time to time.

Put it this way. I played 1e and played a paladin (using the Cavalier rules) who was a real hanging judge type. I played a cleric in 2e that was a real hanging judge type. I played another cleric in 3e that was a real hanging judge type. And, y'know what? He'll probably get reincarnated in 4e as well. He's had different names, and some different goodies (ah, I miss that Hammer of Thunderbolts) but, at the end of the day, he's pretty much the same character.

 

[breschau]

The dragonborn? While it is pretty new (born out of 3E), it is a D&D-creation, so I'll give ya that one too.

Ah, no. The name "dragonborn" is new, but human sized, humanoid characters with dragon characteristics, namely draconians have been around since AD&D.

 

[vazanar]

I see.

Why not just focus the discussion on 4th edition rather than assume anything about the other posters that may not be true?

Bringing up 3rd edition in this manner seems like something of a strawman and just obfuscates the issue, I think.

Because this is enworld and like all forums after having an argument a few times, people assumes everyone opposed to them thinks the same way. This works for pro/anti 4e posters.

As for me managing resources, limited mages, fantasy races, iconic monsters, iconic items, and a hero rising from a normal person with potential to a realm savior. I love playing in the Iron Kingdoms but I think it has a diffrent feel (from the very start when it says their should be no simple +1 sword with no name).

4e feels more like a game of warmachine to me, which isn't neccesarily a bad thing, only diffrent. The lack of the first 3 levels of older DD, seperates this edition more than anything else. My guess is we will see rules in the dmgII to start characters below 1st to give this feel. Ive started enough games at 4-5th level that this wait doesnt bug me. Now we just need the GSL which would help the fluff side (though i guess technically GSL/OGL is the most non DD thing)

 

[Umbran]

And how can you tell that?

First, have the full game in your hands.

Second, dispense with the idea that being D&D and liking the game are linked. In my observation, most people who say, "It isn't D&D" are basing the statement upon how many elements they dislike, rather than on how similar those elements are to other versions of the game. Labrador retrievers are dogs regardless of whether I have a fondness for big soulful eyes and slobber

Third, do some comparisons of the new game with respect to the old - I would suggest not worrying about the details of rules (like how initiative is determined) and focus first on the larger structure (character structure, races, themes, and so on). I would suggest much of this comparison ought to be done through use and experimentation, rather than theory. The proof is, as they say, in the pudding.

 

[CinnamonPixie]

This is more of a theoretical discussion, but at what point of re-designing a game system AND setting, does it become completely a new system/setting?

I ask this because I heard a lot of reports from D&DXP state that, while they changed this and added that, the game still feels like D&D.

I don't know, it just seems like they added too much to the game. Take Healing Surges for example. While it is a great game mechanic, it doesn't really seem like "D&D" to me.

What it "feels" like to me is a more enriched version of the miniatures rules and a watered down more table-top applicable version of World of Warcraft. Sorry, I'm not buying it. If I wanted to play WOW or the minis games I WOULD PLAY THEM! I play D&D for D&D, for the character, the strategy, the things that the game just wont have anymore (skills are being almost foot-note status again, and non-lethal combat (according to comments from developers) doesn't exist anymore))... It's NOT D&D in my opinion, in anything other than name! You may as well label this D&D WOWWE instead of 4e (WOWWE = World of Warcraft Wanna-be Edition).

 

[Brown Jenkin]

Second, dispense with the idea that being D&D and liking the game are linked. In my observation, most people who say, "It isn't D&D" are basing the statement upon how many elements they dislike, rather than on how similar those elements are to other versions of the game. Labrador retrievers are dogs regardless of whether I have a fondness for big soulful eyes and slobber

I can see your point here. From what I have seen I don't really see this as D&D. But if I replace the name Dungeons and Dragons with Caverns and Carnosaurs (I know C&C is already taken but this is short notice) the game system looks fun and is something I might enjoy playing. I would then also pay 3.x in order to get my D&D fix.