When does D&D stop becoming D&D?

[Fifth Element]

I had a substitute teacher in 6th grade during the unit on Beowulf.

She kept calling Grendel an "orgy" instead of an "ogre."

This cracked me up to no end. Apparently she didn't know what an orgy was, and I was the only 6th grader in there who did....

Dude, you did Beowulf in 6th grade? I think the book I did in 6th grade was some lame thing called "Message of the Masks". Sigh.

Of course, I was in French Immersion so the English lit was understandably limited. At least we read The Hobbit in 7th grade.

 

[Fifth Element]

That is a very good point. Still, D&D has evolved from a war game to something more. A storytelling game with war game elements. Now it seems to de-evolved. Not necessarily in a bad way, but as you put it, going back to it's roots.

I know you said "not necessarily in a bad way", but the rest of your post ("evolved into something more", then "de-evolved") strongly implies that previous editions are superior to 4E since it's more like a war game, which is less than an RPG (which is "something more" than a war game).

 

[cheddar bearer]

I don't really have much to add to the argument but I would like to ask those who define D&D in very loose term this: If D&D for you is just fantasy/medieval roleplay or a good roleplay game then is there really any difference between it and say heroes or warhammer fantasy roleplay? Is there any reason you play D&D instead of these rulesets as they all meet the same criteria? Would it still be D&D if WotC put the D&D brand name on any of these rpg rule sets?

I only ask these questions as I feel that there is more to what D&D is than just the feel or the mechanics of the thing. I'm really curious how other people feel about this and their reasons for it. I personally can't figure out what I think core D&D is as I have only really been playing properly since third edition (tried 2nd edition basic and hated it). It seems to me to definately be some combination of fluff and mechanics.

The strange thing is despite not knowing how I class D&D I know what, to me at least feels like classic D&D. The weird thing is that some of the stuff I've heard does make me wonder wether or not 4e fits with this which I don't think I've ever felt about any D&D product before except maybe some intial concerns over the book of nine swords. Anyway just wondering about other peoples feelings on this.

 

[Wolfspider]

Dude, you did Beowulf in 6th grade? I think the book I did in 6th grade was some lame thing called "Message of the Masks". Sigh.

Of course, I was in French Immersion so the English lit was understandably limited. At least we read The Hobbit in 7th grade.

I had a very remarkable teacher in the 6th grade: Mr. Ordway. He had us read Beowulf and mythology and played classical music for us. He did much to make me a student who loved learning. (He also had us read The Hobbit.)

I discovered D&D during this time as well. The combination of his influence and this game really shaped me into the person I am.

I never got a chance to really thank him. After all, I didn't realize the extent of his influence until long after I'd left 6th grade.

 

[Zaruthustran]

Bollocks.

Of course, you waffle a bit later in your post from this stance, saying that there are, in fact, core elements and themes that make D&D D&D, but the sentence I quoted here is nonsense.

If Wotc bought the Hero System and slapped "Dungeons & Dragons" on it, the resulting book would NOT be Dungeons and Dragons, despite having that name on the cover.

So, what would this game--the one in your example, with "Dungeons & Dragons" on the cover--be called? Yeah, it'd be called D&D.

In all seriousness, if the owner of the D&D brand puts that brand's name on a ruleset, then that ruleset is D&D. That was my point.

That said, of course the caretakers of the D&D brand will ensure that any D&D ruleset maintains certain tropes. It's wise to maintain brand integrity.

Scott Rouse is the brand manager of D&D--that's his title--so he (and Sara Girard, and the other members of the brand team) get to literally define "what D&D is". Fortunately, by reading his posts and hearing others comment I think the game is in very good hands. I know that I, for one, agree with everything he mentioned above.

 

[WheresMyD20]

Does it matter? Surely the important thing, the only important thing, for us players is the quality of the game we're getting.

Of course it matters. There are already plenty of quality RPGs on the market. There's only one D&D. There have been several editions, but it's still fundamentally the same game.

4e seems to be more than the slow evolution that we've been accustomed to. The game has undergone a radical redesign and a lot of sacred cows have been slaughtered. The question now is: how big is the jump? Will 4e still feel like the same game? A lot of us like the D&D game the way it is. I, for one, don't want to see it discontinued and replaced with something else, no matter how good the new game is.

 

[howandwhy99]

I posted a nice little comment on what I think D&D is over on this thread a few days ago.

 

[johan_seraphim]

The only way D&D stops becoming D&D (aside from the obvious legal reasons) is if you put yourself into the mindset of this version is not D&D. I knew PLENTY of people who were up in arms about the change from 2nd to 3.X edition, and you know what some of them did?? They continued to play 2nd edition and made themselves happy. If you don't like the fact that the "sacred cows" have been defiled...then don't play 4th edition. Like I read somewhere else, I don't think that WoTC has a device to automatically destroy your 3.X edition stuff and make you buy 4th.

 

[Agamon]

To me, the following is all that is necessary for the game to feel like D&D:

1. Classes and Levels
2. Polyhedral dice
3. Hit points
4. Fantasy genre

Actually, I think that's it for it to feel like D&D to me.

Yup, it's hard to argue with this. One could argue Vancian fire-and-forget spells as a number 5, but one could more easily argue that that is an aspect that needed to change. If it's still got those four, it's still rock'n'roll to me.

 

[Brown Jenkin]

Like I read somewhere else, I don't think that WoTC has a device to automatically destroy your 3.X edition stuff and make you buy 4th.

darn, I had already scheduled the afternoon of June 7 so that I could be home between the hours of 1-4 pm for them to come take my stuff.