When does D&D stop becoming D&D?

[Wolfspider]

I had a substitute teacher in 6th grade during the unit on Beowulf.

She kept calling Grendel an "orgy" instead of an "ogre."

This cracked me up to no end. Apparently she didn't know what an orgy was, and I was the only 6th grader in there who did....

 

[BluSponge]

If Wotc bought the Hero System and slapped "Dungeons & Dragons" on it, the resulting book would NOT be Dungeons and Dragons, despite having that name on the cover.

Well, yes and no. It would be Dungeons and Dragons, but unless it offered a play experience people expect from the game, it wouldn't be successful. Dress HERO up a bit, change packages to "classes", advantages to "feats", and add "levels" in as a measure of experience, then send the final package through the Tomb of Horrors and no one will doubt that its DnD. The components of the game (ie. sacred cows) are not nearly as important to brand identity as the style of play the game allows/encourages.

From a branding perspective anyway. Individual DMs may find the new flavor of DnD unappetizing.

Tom

 

[Campbell]

What I think WotC is going for here is what Marvel managed to pull off with their Ultimate line of comics: take the core of the IP and redefine it for a new generation. There will certainly be some longtime fans disenfranchised by this move, but I don't think there will be enough of those folks to hurt 4E. (I do think, however, that there will be enough of those for a third party company to carve out a good business for itself catering to them, but that's a topic for another day.)

I think Chris is onto something here. I think in a lot of ways 4e isn't the same game as previous iterations and playing in a 4e game will feel very different from playing in a 3e game. Still, at least as far as I am concerned, it is still very much a Dungeons and Dragon game in the same way that Ultimate Spiderman still feels like Spiderman even if he is very much not the same character as the Spiderman from the core continuity.

Some people may disagree with me, but I feel this sort of shot in the arm is necessary from time to time. People's preconceptions need to be challenged, market leaders need to be a force for innovation, and a new generation needs a game that feels distinctively theirs. At the same time the spiritual essence of the game needs to be maintained. I happen to believe that 4e is true to the spirit of the original game while providing an innovative new play experience. Others will obviously differ.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Ah, what is the Soul of D&D? ...

 

[WayneLigon]

If Wotc bought the Hero System and slapped "Dungeons & Dragons" on it, the resulting book would NOT be Dungeons and Dragons, despite having that name on the cover.

'D&D' is less the system and more of fluff that goes along with it. I could take HERO and do a campaign with it with that fluff and despite you rolling only d6's and having a different character sheet, I'd defy anyone to tell me it wasn't D&D. The actions, the monsters, the entire dynamic would be virtually identical. The play experience that most roleplaying games offer is the same, exactly the same; people just argue over the details of hows and whys.

Because if the traits of 4E that putatively make it "not D&D anymore" are equally descriptive of 3E, then 3E is also not D&D.

I have seen quite a number of detractors claim that very thing.

 

[Moon_Goddess]

On a more personal note, ask yourself when you read about the game: if this was not DnD 4th edition, would I play it? Would I make the necessary investment to run the game? Would my friends/players agree to make the investment and play it? If the answer to those questions is yes, than no worries. If the answer is no, well that could be the best lesson on the power of branding and marketing one can get.

My problem is that I'd be much more likely to play if it didn't say DND on it.

 

[Hussar]

Originally Posted by Dr. Awkward
Because if the traits of 4E that putatively make it "not D&D anymore" are equally descriptive of 3E, then 3E is also not D&D.

3e is D20 Fantasy didntchaknow.

 

[The Human Target]

Never.

That was easy.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

I see.

Why not just focus the discussion on 4th edition rather than assume anything about the other posters that may not be true?

Bringing up 3rd edition in this manner seems like something of a strawman and just obfuscates the issue, I think.

It's not a strawman if the person making the argument in question is being inconsistent. If you're going to criticize 4E for possessing some trait that 3E has, but simultaneously take the stance that 3E is the already-acceptable basis for comparison, you're applying a double standard. Pointing out the double standard is a fine way to disarm the critic.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

I had a substitute teacher in 6th grade during the unit on Beowulf.

She kept calling Grendel an "orgy" instead of an "ogre."

This cracked me up to no end. Apparently she didn't know what an orgy was, and I was the only 6th grader in there who did....

My fourth grade teacher thought that you could get lead poisoning from a pencil injury.