When does Invisibility drop while attacking?

[orbitalfreak]

Add me to the list of those who disagree with the Sage. This is about the only thing that I absolutely disagree with him on.

Do all the iterative attacks no only get the Invis +2 bonus, but sneak attack as well?

 

[kreynolds]

Do all the iterative attacks no only get the Invis +2 bonus, but sneak attack as well?

If you follow the Sage's logic, yes, if you're flanking or have them caught flat-footed.

 

[Lord Ben]

I treat it like a new combatant that people aren't aware of entering combat. If he starts attacking and people aren't aware of him he gets his whole round like a surprise round.

 

[Ristamar]

So attack, in regards to invisibility, refers to the (full) attack action, not an interative attack. Interesting... Wish it would've been clearer in the first place.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Well I agree with the sage, so ha.

As I said before it seems to be a quirk of the turn based system. As written it seemed to me that a full attack is a attack action that takes place exactly at one instance. I mean sure logically it is just simulating a bunch of acitons happening over a 6 second span. But you start picking and choosing when an action happens at once and when it doesn't happen at once, and then you fall into other problems. Hey why isn't x still in the area of effect we go one the same initiative he is probably still moving out that 30', hey even though I'm dead my attacks should be spread out across the round so wouldn't I have gotten at least one swing in etc.

 

[Uller]

If you follow the Sage's logic, yes, if you're flanking or have them caught flat-footed.

??? what does flat-footed have to do with this? Flat-footed is a condition that only exists during the surprise round and first round of combat. Loss of dex from Invis is an entirely different kettle of fish.

Not trying to nit-pick here...it is just important to keep your terminology straight in the rules forum. Flat-footed is a specific game term and is not the same as when you lose your dex bonus to AC while being attacked by an invisible foe.

Anyway...yes, if you benefit from invisibility through your entire full attack, then you can get sneak attack damage on every attack because your target is denied his dex bonus to AC for all of them. Suddenly, I want to play a Rogue/Wizard again!

 

[kreynolds]

??? what does flat-footed have to do with this? Flat-footed is a condition that only exists during the surprise round and first round of combat. Loss of dex from Invis is an entirely different kettle of fish.

Not trying to nit-pick here...it is just important to keep your terminology straight in the rules forum. Flat-footed is a specific game term and is not the same as when you lose your dex bonus to AC while being attacked by an invisible foe.

He was asking about sneak attack. If you are flanked or flat-footed or are being attacked by an invisible creature, you can be sneak attacked. It was all in orbitalfreak's post. He asked about sneak attack, so I gave him the parameters required to make a sneak attack. Since this entire thread revolves around invisibility, I didn't feel the need to mention invisibility, yet again. Make sense? I'm not trying to be rude. I just thought it was obvious what he was asking.

 

[Uller]

He was asking about sneak attack. If you are flanked or flat-footed or are being attacked by an invisible creature, you can be sneak attacked. It was all in orbitalfreak's post. He asked about sneak attack, so I gave him the parameters required to make a sneak attack. Since this entire thread revolves around invisibility, I didn't feel the need to mention invisibility, yet again. Make sense? I'm not trying to be rude. I just thought it was obvious what he was asking.

Actually, the only criteria for sneak attack is if you flank your opponent or if he is denied his dex bonus to AC. Being flat-footed or attacked by an invis attacker are two common examples of cases that cause you to lose your dex bonus, but those certainly are not the entire set of circumstance that can achieve that.

Anyway...your post...

If you follow the Sage's logic, yes, if you're flanking or have them caught flat-footed.

...doesn't really make it clear that you were changing the subject, and plenty of people have refered to being denied your dex bonus to AC as being "flat-footed", so I assumed that is what you were doing. Sorry if that upset you.

 

[kreynolds]

Uller, it didn't upset me...ok...it did. But that's ok. I was one of the people that kept using the term "flat-footed" out of context, so I understand.

BUT, the bottom line is this: If you are flat-footed, you can be sneak attacked (unless we are talking about blindsight, tremorsense, etc, so sense I already mentioned those, don't bother ). Do you challenge this? Do you claim that if you are flat-footed that you cannot be sneak attacked? I don't think you are implying that. Notice that I gave several examples of conditions that make you vulnerable to a sneak attack. I implied nothing more, nothing less. However, any further argument on this will upset me because it's a waste of time, especially considering how obvious it is that you and I already know how this works. I don't mind you having the desire to clarify my statements, but what's the point of correcting my statement if it isn't incorrect in the first place? I'm not upset, just a rough day at work, and nothing irritates me more than this, well, except rashes and blisters, stuff like that.

 

[Uller]

I said that catching your target flat-footed is not a requirement for sneak attack. Denying him his dex bonus is(and catching him flat-footed is one way of doing that). You called flat-footed a "required parameter for sneak attack"(your words, not mine).

Anyway...I'm not trying to tick you off or be rude or even single you out as the sole offender...lots of people use "flat-footed" as equal to "denied dex bonus"...they are not the same. They are two very specific and seperate conditions.

I am trying to tell you(and others who read this) that if you are going to give rules advice, you need to be very precise in your terminology. You were giving examples of how to achieve a sneak attack but it was coming across(to me anyway) as the _requirements_ for sneak attack. My concern here is not whether or not I upset you, but to make sure newbies are set on the right track to understanding the rules. A better way of answering the question would would have been to say something like:

"Since the target would be denied his dex bonus for ALL the iterative attacks, sneak attack damage would apply to all of them(assuming the target has discernable anatomy, is living, is not concealed and is subject to critical hits)."

Your answer just seemed confusing to me.