When is it too much?

[randomling]

My tendency in your shoes would probably be to do the minimum - run it as regular D&D with suitable class & race restrictions - eg no spellcasting PCs, maybe just Rogues* & Fighters (actually, all Rogues would probably work fine!) - and limit equipment availability. I might also give out some free skill ranks in appropriate background skills like sailing, at generation & during the campaign, and I might use Conan RPG's Fate Points. If there's no PC spellcasting, you can make magic do whatever you want, no need to define it with rules.

Problems w this approach - the main one I think is that everyone will want to wear armour, which you might not want. Maybe give characters a +1 Dodge/Parry Defence bonus per 2 levels that doesn't stack with armour bonus, that'd encourage unarmoured swashbucklers at higher levels. And enforce drowning in heavy armour, of course.

You can worry about the magic system later, once play has started and you have a better feel for what you want. I'm not sure if WP/VP or d20 Modern classes are worth the effort of adjustment - I flirted w WP/VP for Borderlands, but decided against it; abstract hit points make for a more flamboyant, less gritty, game I think. If there's a few days between battles hp will recover ok at the standard 3.5 rates (bedrest gives 2/level/day, otherwise 1/level/night's sleep).

*Actually, the more I think about it the better this idea seems. The Rogue class seems perfect for swashbuckling types, and if EVERYONE's a Rogue there are no Fighters to hide behind! People would be forced to distinguish their PCs by personality and unusual characteristics rather than by class.

Ooh. That's a really interesting idea and I like it! You can do quite a lot with the rogue class - I might even allow people to mess with it a little bit if they wanted, so characters are somewhat more customizable within that. (For instance if you wanted to switch out sneak attack for another ability, or something, I'd probably let you within reason.)

You know, I think that has a lot of potential..... thanks for the idea!

 

[S'mon]

Ooh. That's a really interesting idea and I like it! You can do quite a lot with the rogue class - I might even allow people to mess with it a little bit if they wanted, so characters are somewhat more customizable within that. (For instance if you wanted to switch out sneak attack for another ability, or something, I'd probably let you within reason.)

You know, I think that has a lot of potential..... thanks for the idea!

I think it might be the ideal way to do swashbuckling D&D with minimum effort. It immediately encourages lightly armoured types who swing from the rigging, tumble through the enemy horde, jump from deck to deck... You could let all skills be Class skills, that's easy to implement and would encourage differentiation among the PCs. You could also lift class-based Feat restrictions so Rogues could take Weapon Specialisation, which fits a duellist type.

Sneak attack is a good swashbuckling ability - it's not just backstabs any more, you can use it with the Improved Feint feat to pull nasty tricks in a regular melee, bluffing the foe into letting his guard down for a devastating strike. Keeping it for most PCs (& NPCs!) would be ok I think. You could be generous in allowing non-lethal sneak attacks with clubs, tavern stools, etc so PCs could be knocked out & captured without being killed.

Quint Rogue might have useful stuff too, though it's mostly thief-oriented - do you have my copy? Can't find it around. :\

Along with Rogues, I suggest using mostly or exclusively the NPC classes from the DMG - Warrior (for town guards, marines, other stolid soldier types to outwit), Aristocrat, Commoner, Expert & maybe Adept - Adepts would be the priests, witches, & other spellcasters, you can use a spell-point system for them, but you don't need to detail it right away. Using the NPC classes only would help prevent PCs being outshadowed by NPC Fighters, Clerics, Sorcerers & other powerful classes, although these could be used for occasional powerful BBEGs.

Thought re Defense Value - might not be necessary if you're allowing magic protections at higher levels? If it stacked w magic AC-boosts ACs would get too high (IMO), character ACs should generally be kept in the 10-25 range.

 

[Djeta Thernadier]

I really think the best advice I can give you is it is too much when it ceases to be fun and enjoyable for you, and you start to dread doing it because it feels more like work.

Or if the rules you are coming up with are so similiar to pre-existing ones that the changes you are making are not worth it, because in the big scheme of things they don't change much. You know, maybe make a compromise, use some of your modifications and some of the rules as they are.

But when it stops being fun, I think you'll start to resent it. So keep it fun. Sounds like a great game. I really want to play in a Pirate/Swashbuckler game.

 

[randomling]

I think it might be the ideal way to do swashbuckling D&D with minimum effort. It immediately encourages lightly armoured types who swing from the rigging, tumble through the enemy horde, jump from deck to deck... You could let all skills be Class skills, that's easy to implement and would encourage differentiation among the PCs. You could also lift class-based Feat restrictions so Rogues could take Weapon Specialisation, which fits a duellist type.

Sneak attack is a good swashbuckling ability - it's not just backstabs any more, you can use it with the Improved Feint feat to pull nasty tricks in a regular melee, bluffing the foe into letting his guard down for a devastating strike. Keeping it for most PCs (& NPCs!) would be ok I think. You could be generous in allowing non-lethal sneak attacks with clubs, tavern stools, etc so PCs could be knocked out & captured without being killed.

Quint Rogue might have useful stuff too, though it's mostly thief-oriented - do you have my copy? Can't find it around. :\

Along with Rogues, I suggest using mostly or exclusively the NPC classes from the DMG - Warrior (for town guards, marines, other stolid soldier types to outwit), Aristocrat, Commoner, Expert & maybe Adept - Adepts would be the priests, witches, & other spellcasters, you can use a spell-point system for them, but you don't need to detail it right away. Using the NPC classes only would help prevent PCs being outshadowed by NPC Fighters, Clerics, Sorcerers & other powerful classes, although these could be used for occasional powerful BBEGs.

Thought re Defense Value - might not be necessary if you're allowing magic protections at higher levels? If it stacked w magic AC-boosts ACs would get too high (IMO), character ACs should generally be kept in the 10-25 range.

Um.... yup, I still have your copy of Quint Rogue. (Hopefully I'll have time to nip home and pick it up before tonight's game.) From memory there's a Pirate archetype.

Along with allowing all skills as class skills and Weapon Spec (and GWF and GWS, I guess, though rogues don't really have the feats) I'll probably do a couple of other things - add a few things onto the rogue weapon proficiencies for one, though probably not all simple and martial weapons, and maybe allow characters to pick one good save (just for a little variety and customizability).

I'm thinking of having a look at Midnight's feat-based magic system and seeing if I can lift it in part or in whole, because it sounds as if it might come close to fitting my ideas for magic flavour.

I'm probably going to hold onto the cool Parry rule from the house rules thread and give a Dodge bonus to DV - I'm not sure yet what I'm going to do with magical protection at high levels, but it's likely to be fairly limited if it's available at all at this point. Certainly if magic is feat-based as in Midnight it's not necessarily going to be that common - most people don't have many feats to play with!

Hmmm. This is really starting to work for me as a concept!

 

[Calico_Jack73]

Those of you who've seen a thread or two of mine might know that I'm trying to put together a swashbuckling campaign. I have a great setting and a lot of really cool ideas - but none of the rulsets I own or have access to really capture the "18th century pirates" flavour and feel that I want.

WHAT????? Skull & Bones DOESN'T capture the 18th Century Pirates feel????

My friend, you seriously need to have your head examined.

Edit: Now that I've recovered from the shock of that statement I can continue.

Have you even checked out Skull & Bones? If not let me know and I'll give you a rundown of some of the great things about it that make it perfect for such a game.

 

[randomling]

Calico, I'm sure Skull & Bones is great, but I don't have it and am extremely low on funds right now - so I'm pretty much limited to rulesets that I either own already or can borrow. I don't know of anybody who's got it, so right now it's not an option.

Thanks for the recommendation, though - I'll be sure to have a look at it when I have some spare cash.

 

[S'mon]

Along with allowing all skills as class skills and Weapon Spec (and GWF and GWS, I guess, though rogues don't really have the feats) I'll probably do a couple of other things - add a few things onto the rogue weapon proficiencies for one

Yeah, a cutlass (prob same as longsword, d8/19-20x2) would be good.
Some characters might choose to use rapiers instead (d6/18-20x2), esp if they're higher level and want to take Improved Crit. Non-swashbuckley weapons like greatswords & longbows should require a feat, though.

 

[diaglo]

visit my old buddy Jack Daniel

http://www.geocities.com/ivan_327/resetting.htm

 

[Calico_Jack73]

Calico, I'm sure Skull & Bones is great, but I don't have it and am extremely low on funds right now - so I'm pretty much limited to rulesets that I either own already or can borrow. I don't know of anybody who's got it, so right now it's not an option.

Thanks for the recommendation, though - I'll be sure to have a look at it when I have some spare cash.

Too bad... you may have to check E-Bay or some other way to get a cheap copy of it. It has a totally redone magic system to reflect the Vodoo roots of magic in the setting and the only two spell casting classes are the Bokor and the Hougan. It has a great character background section... basically all humans (the only race available) give up their 4 extra starting skills to pay for a background that gives specific bonuses and penalties based on the background (gentleman pirate, escaped slave, pressed into service). There are PrCs for various fencing styles (Spanish, Florentine, British, German, French) which each have their own signature moves and abilities. There is also a great ship combat section which explains points of bearing, nautical miles, etc. The combat section also provides a great system for mass combats between ship crews which can be used for any game system. Because there is no Raise Dead or Ressurrection spell in the setting each pirate starts with a number of "Lives" that represent their incredible luck. Whenever PCs are in a situation that is certain death they mark off one of their lives and come up with some reason, no matter how far fetched on how they survived (these are the source of the great pirate legends). Captain Jack Sparrow would have used one when he was abandoned on the island which should have spelled his death but instead he just so happened to run across some Rum Runners who agreed to take him back to civilization. There is also a system for "Rolling the Bones" which reflect the fickle nature of luck in those situations. There is also a system for mooks (aka Cannon Fodder) since combat between PCs and mooks should be quick and favor the PCs in any kind of cinematic swashbuckling campaign. There is also obviously a Parry system which is pretty much a requirement for any Swashbuckling campaign. The Campaign support is also great with write ups on the vast majority of inhabited Carribbean Islands during the late 17th/early 18th century.

Overall it is a GREAT book... definitely worth every penny I spent on it. See if your group will consider throwing money in to get it. I've yet to hear a complaint about it.

 

[Calico_Jack73]

Yeah, a cutlass (prob same as longsword, d8/19-20x2) would be good.
Some characters might choose to use rapiers instead (d6/18-20x2), esp if they're higher level and want to take Improved Crit. Non-swashbuckley weapons like greatswords & longbows should require a feat, though.

Cutlasses are the preferred weapon onboard ships because they don't require near the same room to swing around to be effective. Longswords and Greatswords are almost useless below decks.