When is metagaming too much as a DM?

[Clavis]

So, if the Balor is in the back, protected by other devil minions and no one in the party has attacked him yet he should target either the closest PC or a random enemy?

Why even have a DM at this point if one of the most intelligent foes in the game is just going to attack like an non-intelligent undead?

The problem is another metagame issue. Namely, everyone is at the table to have fun, and its the DMs job to try to keep the game enjoyable. The player of the wizard may very well feel that his or her character is being picked on, and by extension, that he or she is being picked on personally. I would assume that if the wizard was specifically targeted, and his or her character gets killed as a result of the encounter, the player might have bitter memories of how unfair the DM was.

As for the Balor's intelligence, I think of it as being tempered by it's arrogance. ALL humans just look like soft and squishy mortals to it. It might no more distinguish between humans than we distinguish between ants. The differences that we treasure, that we think show our individuality, might be simply imperceptible to an alien intelligence used to ordering its mental world differently.

 

[avin]

I figure out how intelligent the creature is and cast accordingly his/her/its judgement.

 

[ExploderWizard]

As for the Balor's intelligence, I think of it as being tempered by it's arrogance. ALL humans just look like soft and squishy mortals to it. It might no more distinguish between humans than we distinguish between ants. The differences that we treasure, that we think show our individuality, might be simply imperceptible to an alien intelligence used to ordering its mental world differently.

Thats a great point and something that should be considered when playing an alien creature. It depends on how experienced the individual is in conflict with puny mortals. If this particular balor had only ever encountered peasant farmers on the prime material it might not even be aware that it can be hurt !

 

[gizmo33]

I'd take a few seconds to make up an impromptu table for the target of the power word. I'd probably exclude the barbarian since IMO the balor would know the capabilities of his spell the same as a player. Another thing I've done often in the past is let the players roll for it: "everyone rolls a d6, the lowest roll is the target of the spell - and the barbarian player gets a +3 to his roll"

 

[Aberzanzorax]

Thats a great point and something that should be considered when playing an alien creature. It depends on how experienced the individual is in conflict with puny mortals. If this particular balor had only ever encountered peasant farmers on the prime material it might not even be aware that it can be hurt !

Hmmm.

I sorta agree about alien intelligence and hubris, and this is a bit of a new idea for me...

...but the more I think about it (well a Balor anyway, not too sure about far realms guys or elementals) the more I disagree that it would think "humans are all the same".

When I think of a Balor, I think of someone who has existed for thousands of years (at least). It's not as though adventurers and non abyssals never enter the abyss. Also, tons of abyssal creatures get summoned, and know that summoning is a threat.

I imagine demons talk to one another about these things. I also would have to wonder how a Balor got to his station without knowing that he can be summoned by clerics and wizards.

On top of all of that, there is the fact that demons of all sorts have the goal of corrupting mortals...and so have an inordinate focus on them.


I think I might even go so far as to say that Balors specifically know a TON about the capabilities of humans, particularly those likely to rise to high levels of power (the kind that can summon them and the most worthy/valuable to tempt to evil). It is their job to do this.

 

[Doug McCrae]

It's not about intelligence. Albert Einstein wasn't the most feared knife fighter of the Edwardian period. He wouldn't have had a clue what to do in a brawl because he lacked the experience, instinct and aggression which win fights. Sorry, nerds, you ain't good at fighting.

However I think a balor would have those traits in spades. It would be very good at making quick decisions in combat, superhumanly so. One can represent this by giving it access to game rules knowledge like hit points, and classes. Metagaming, to an extent.

 

[ExploderWizard]

It's not about intelligence. Albert Einstein wasn't the most feared knife fighter of the Edwardian period. He wouldn't have had a clue what to do in a brawl because he lacked the experience, instinct and aggression which win fights. Sorry, nerds, you ain't good at fighting.

However I think a balor would have those traits in spades. It would be very good at making quick decisions in combat, superhumanly so. One can represent this by giving it access to game rules knowledge like hit points, and classes. Metagaming, to an extent.

When speaking of creature intelligence, I see a much coarser grain than the genius vs the regular guy. The major differences count for a lot more. A huge insect with even dull human intelligence would be very frightening.

 

[Ktulu]

I don't bother with either method strictly. It's much easier, imo.

High fort = physically impressive character

High Ref = intuitive or reflexive

High will = calculated and cunning

High AC = subjective

Those are the factors. No rogue should (unless he's bluffing) ever look like he's not intuitive or reflexive during combat. Characters with high forts are almost always people with huge con and strength scores (in 4e, respectively). Wizards lack high con and aren't as physically skilled, so on and so on.

A player shouldn't get angered because he's got an easily targeted fortitude and he's playing a wizard. It's part of the game.

Same as how the fighter shouldn't be surprised when reflex attacks target him. Part of the strategy of the game is to mitigate those factors by using teamwork and making it challenging to go for the easy target.

This is not an issue in our games and has never come up as a complaint.

 

[tomlib]

Another View

This is an interesting topic but I'm going to risk taking it out of bounds here. The real question seems, to me at least, to be: As a GM should you use your knowledge, unknown to the NPC, to make decisions?

The obvious answer for everyone, I'm guessing, is no. The trick comes in looking at things from the NPCs point of view. Not just in combat but in a skill challenge or even just a dialog. This is role-playing. This is the game.

A GM who loses the trust of the players to role-play impartially loses the greater part of the game.

I've seen many great examples here in this thread of GMs doing exactly that so I won't bother to repeat them. It all comes down to playing the NPC as the NPC, not the GM. Easily said, not so easily done

My best advice is to simply forget about statistical dynamics, know the goals of the NPC and its abilities, its knowledge of the current situation and do your best to behave accordingly. Does the Balor want to survive, cause pain, deplete the strength of the group as it defends its master, or some other driving force? That is the question and through knowing the correct question I think you will generally find the right answer.

Happy gaming!

Tom

 

[Starbuck_II]

Say a lv17 party is facing a balor. One of its myriad of SLAs includes power word: stun. How might you, as the DM, decide who to target with it? You know fully well how many hp each player has, and who would be the most drastically affected by it. But would that be seen as being too metagamey, if the PC with the least hp (say the wizard) got zapped by it? The balor is extremely intelligent, and it does not seem impossible that he can deduce who has the least hp...

The only metamaging I see if what lets you know who the Wizard is?

Is he wearing some stupid wizard sign on his head or a name/classtag?

I can understand on round 3 after seeing him cast twice spells that are usually arcane through spellcraft (though that can be hard because Clerics know some wizard spells/vice versa)


But round one without indication is metgaming unless it was a random choice where Balor got lucky.