D&D 5E When lore and PC options collide…

Which is more important?

  • Lore

  • PC options


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Which is more important: preserving the lore of a setting or having the full range of PC character creation options?

For example, in the lore of Dragonlance between the Cataclysm and the start of the first novel there are no true clerics. Likewise, there are no halflings, orcs, changelings, tieflings, dragonborn, etc.

So which is more important: preserving existing lore or the full range of 5E PC character creation options?
Mu.

There are fundamentals of the setting and there are accidents of the setting. The fundamentals need to be kept, the accidents don't.

For example in Krynn (as you mention between the Cataclysm and the first novel) it is a huge plot and worldbuilding point that there are no true clerics. No clerics is right there in the elevator pitch.

Meanwhile, with the arguable exception of dragonborn it is an accident of the setting that there isn't a weird tribe of orcs somewhere in the mountains, or a couple of halflings somewhere or granddaddy sold their soul and so we have a tiefling.
 

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Does it do anything for their creativity? It may. Sometimes a player may need to scrap one idea in favor of another, or to ditch a favorite go-to in order to come up with something new.
the fact that some DMs think "I'm going to tech that player a lesson and say they can't play what they want" is infuriating to me.
But what about GM creativity and constraint? Never really comes into play, does it? All these creative GMs and their creative worlds just disregarding any kind of constraint that player choice might place on them. No constraint on their decisions at all.
I would say the DM is as constrained as the Players when they all treat each other as friends and equals
"But I don't like Tieflings" is about the least creative reason to exclude them. If that's all you got, then stop talking about creativity. That's as dull and basic a reason to exclude stuff. This is more a by-product of the common conception with D&D that it's "the DM's world" rather than the group's world. Don't like Tieflings? Find a way to make them work in your world. Surely this constraint would make one a more creative GM, no?
I love this flipping the argument around... but again I just think talking like adults is better then insults and forcing people to play as you want.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I find it interesting that the "constraint fosters creativity" argument gets mentioned in these discussions. Not because I don't think there's truth to it, but because it's usually mentioned in conjunction with external constraint, right? Such as a GM telling players "these races are off the table"; that's external to the players, and constrains their choices.

Does it do anything for their creativity? It may. Sometimes a player may need to scrap one idea in favor of another, or to ditch a favorite go-to in order to come up with something new.

But it also may not. Maybe they have a really compelling idea for a tiefling... and then they realize no tieflings allowed, and so they scrap it and make a new character out of necessity rather than excitement, which turns out to be bland next to the old one.

I'd say that the idea of constraint fostering creativity doesn't really have a place in the discussion. Or, at least, not from the player perspective.
I half agree and half disagree with this. From a player perspective what I see the vast majority of the time is that players have a bunch of great ideas floating around and will generally have one or twelve that fit the constraints.

That leaves the minority of the time being "inspires creativity" and "the player ends up with a bland character." I've seen both happen, but more often I see it inspire creativity. Many times, even though I'm in the group that has many great concepts hanging around, the limitations cause me to think about my character in a new way and I see something really great and fun that I never would have thought of otherwise.

The only times I've ended up with bland and boring characters is there has been too much constraint, such as coming to game night and being told that the group wants to play human mercenary fighters. If I'm not in the mood for that specific concept, it's going to be very hard for me to come up with something interesting and fun. That's when I'll push back a little and suggest that in a human mercenary unit there might be a cleric of Tempus(a war god) who fights and heals, or a ranger to scout or something and see if the DM/group is open to that sort of thing.
But what about GM creativity and constraint? Never really comes into play, does it? All these creative GMs and their creative worlds just disregarding any kind of constraint that player choice might place on them. No constraint on their decisions at all.
This I have to disagree with. Often the constraints are also on what monsters and/or stories are available to tell and those limitations sometimes inspire me to create something around those limitations, accentuating them rather than ignoring them.

As for players constraining the DM by what they want, that happens fairly often in groups of friends. If most of the group wants something done a certain way, the DM is much more likely(usually) going to go along with it. It happens in my long time game with my buddies. We're going to discuss something tomorrow before the game and hash out an issue that recently came up.

In a pick-up game with random people at say a game story or convention, I'm not going to bend what is established just to allow a single stranger to play his pet idea. I'm there to run this idea that I had and players can sit down and play what I have come up with or move on to something else. It's not the same dynamic as a weekly game among friends.
 

On the flip side, if every player except one is buying into your lore... maybe that player is the problem...
what then if it isn't just one... what if you sit down to play dragonlance and 5 players show up (1 with a half orc) and when you say know 3 of the 4 other players say "Just let it slide so we can all have fun"
then what?

6 people (DM plus 5 players) 1 wants to play something, 1 doesn't want them to play it and 3 other speak up to defend the 'want to play' (and just to round it out the last player doesn't care as long as we can get started before pizza gets here)
 

Vaalingrade

Legend
the fact that some DMs think "I'm going to tech that player a lesson and say they can't play what they want" is infuriating to me.
I give the side-eye to anyone that decides to 'teach a lesson' to a peer who didn't ask to be taught anything. Especially if it's the weird 'moral' lessons like 'sometimes imaginary people die from making a completely arbitrary choice with zero data', or 'you can't do what you want in this literal power fantasy'.
 

I find it interesting that the "constraint fosters creativity" argument gets mentioned in these discussions. Not because I don't think there's truth to it, but because it's usually mentioned in conjunction with external constraint, right? Such as a GM telling players "these races are off the table"; that's external to the players, and constrains their choices.
In my experience the main creativity fostered by constraints is the creativity in subverting the constraint. And the more constraints you put out there the more peoples' inspiration and attention is going to be grabbed by seeing how they can subvert those constraints.

If you want people inspired by your setting point to that which is inspiring and treat them like adults. If you bang on about how "we shall have no wizards and arcane magic is feared, and no clerics because the gods are dead" then you'll get the situation I saw at one Dark Sun table where there were no wizards ... instead there was a bard, a pact of the tome warlock, a druid, and a paladin. Because every player had their inspiration grabbed by the restrictions.
 


Imaro

Legend
what then if it isn't just one... what if you sit down to play dragonlance and 5 players show up (1 with a half orc) and when you say know 3 of the 4 other players say "Just let it slide so we can all have fun"
then what?

6 people (DM plus 5 players) 1 wants to play something, 1 doesn't want them to play it and 3 other speak up to defend the 'want to play' (and just to round it out the last player doesn't care as long as we can get started before pizza gets here)

And what if they tell the lone player that they really aren't abiding by the implicit social agreement they all agreed to when the group decided to play Dragonlance? I mean we can write more and more contrived examples to narrow it down until our view is the only "correct" view but what is that really accomplishing? scoring of brownie points?
 

And what if they tell the lone player that they really aren't abiding by the implicit social agreement they all agreed to when the group decided to play Dragonlance? I mean we can write more and more contrived examples to narrow it down until our view is the only "correct" view but what is that really accomplishing? scoring of brownie points?
since I was already told in this very thread that the player is a [badword] I don't see why I can't change the argument as much as that...
 

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