When PCs fail.

[Verdande]

I've got a couple quick things to say, cause I'm cool like that.

1) If you don't want your players to fail, then don't set the stakes up high.

2)Clever adventure planners plan for their players' failure, also. Where in the adventure does it say, "The players fight Orcus; make him beatable so the players won't have to deal with failure"?

3) If your players don't slay Orcus (or rather, since they didn't), the world doesn't explode in a fireball. They can make new level 1 characters and see what happens. It'll be cool to hear other people talk about their old characters and see the things they've accomplished. They may not be able to stop him, but that doesn't mean the entire game world is changed. The game can turn into a post-apocalyptic one, where hordes of undead have nearly wiped out the humble populace, etc etc.

4)I repeat myself- always have a backup plan in case the players fail. I'm not saying, "If the players fail, have an NPC do it," or "If they fail, it doesn't work anyways,", no, that's cheating. You need a backup plan as in, what happens afterwards, and is it possible to keep playing. See above. You should always do this, since there's always a chance for players to fail. Robbing them of their chances to fail robs them of the glory of victory. Don't believe me? Try running a footrace against some 5 year old kids, and tell me how much you value your "win."

 

[Morgan Stormane]

If anything, this failure will provide the game with a lot of interesting events. Probably more than what would have happened if they succeeded (so that's kinda cool).

Do you own "Requiem for a God" from Malhavoc Press/Monte Cook? There are some interesting ideas/crunch in there that seem to be perfect for letting Orcus kill one or more gods in your campaign. If your PCs have a little fire in their eyes and some steel in their spines, this seems like a great way for them to interact with the consequences of their actions and maybe get a bit of redemption (there is even a scenario in the book about resurrecting a god).

Personally, as a PC, I'd want my second chance here, but I've seen groups that are ready to call it quits after epic fails. You know your group better than we do and you should do what you think is best. It sounds like you've got some great ideas and some great advice in this thread for a great "round 2" to your campaign. As long as your players are ready for more, keep it going.

Whatever you choose, keep us informed. This is very interesting.

Morgan

 

[Oryan77]

Oh the campaign will go on, that's for sure. The players don't want to stop here (neither do I). They are curious to see what happens next. They are also ready for some new adventures (so am I).

My biggest obstacle is to just figure out what happens now that Orcus has returned, and to figure out how I can blend that info into the next adventures that really have nothing to do with the Dead Gods scenario.

Do you own "Requiem for a God" from Malhavoc Press/Monte Cook?

I actually owned that book about 5 years ago and I sold it. I never even read it. Now I might have to buy it again. That's a good suggestion, thanks!

always have a backup plan in case the players fail.

I never really think that far into things. It has to do with the whole, "players will always surprise you with the unexpected", so I don't bother. I didn't even really have a plan on what happens if they succeed. I usually wing it and figure it all out at the last minute.
Basically, I do what I'm doing right now. When something happens, I think about it and figure out what I can do next. Oh, and I come to Enworld to ask for ideas.

 

[Verdande]

I never really think that far into things. It has to do with the whole, "players will always surprise you with the unexpected", so I don't bother. I didn't even really have a plan on what happens if they succeed. I usually wing it and figure it all out at the last minute.

Hey, me too! I don't plan much of anything, but you should really consider at least the basics, if nothing more than a scrap on a piece of paper or mental notes. A lot of things are basically binary, especially when the climax of the campaign is "Either you win or you don't."

For example, if your players fail to eradicate the goblins, and they were really the only hope, then the town is burnt to the ground. If not, they continue.

People act like there's only two kinds of DMs: those who try and pre-plan everything and those who wing it all on the seat of their pants. I lean strongly towards part two, but I've done my homework- the campaign world itself at least makes minimal sense in my head, I've got a vague idea of where they're going and what sort of stuff lies in that corner of the world, and I've got a Quiklist (tm) of setting-appropriate character names and some sample quirks/traits. Everything else, which is almost everything, comes out in gameplay, and in the back and forth between me and my players.

Personally, I've never had a situation where the players were the only thing standing in between oblivion and the entire world- my tastes run more to pulp, low-fantasy fare than the "epic save the world" stuff. But the principles still apply.

 

[Dimitri Mazieres]

I agree with the suggestions previously posted that involve continuing with the campaign, while making it very clear the consequences of the PC's failure: grim(mer) world, death (or worse) of close and/or important NPCs, maybe, as was suggested, the death of a minor god (or if you want to be particularly nasty, the cleric PC's god )

 

[DumbPaladin]

I guess they had a decision; focus on their survival, or try to stop the BBEG from taking the artifact. Obviously their survival was more important (not a problem, but not heroic either), and they really didn't give any thought about what happens to the artifact if they flee. So they made their choice, they lived, but they failed big time.

[snip]

What are your thoughts about allowing the PCs to fail a mission?

If they failed, they failed. Certainly, given that you offered friendly advice as the omniscient narrator that they promptly ignored, I think they have no one else to blame.

Why not let them see the ramifications of their decision to flee rather than to stop the bad guys at all costs? If the world (even in some small degree) is actually altered by their inability to stop the BBEG, it may sink in that they need to take things a bit more seriously, or perhaps that your storytelling ability and decisions (or the stakes of the game) have stepped up to a new level.

But I'd also say, after showing them the ramifications of their fail ... give them a chance to fix it anew. There's nothing like a shot at redemption.

 

[Aberzanzorax]

I'm definitely in the camp of, as Kamikaze Midget eloquently put it "the players earned their failure". Negative consequences are GREAT for gaming.


So now there is a threat FAR above the level of the players. If I were dming I'd think "what would Orcus do?" (WWOD). From what I've read, he's got some pretty big chips on his shoulders against Grazzt and Jubilex.

I think, before attacking any of the good gods, he'd go after them. Does he simply kill them? Do they ally with him and, GASP, serve him...perhaps going after a united abyss, the end of the blood war, and a war upon the heavens?

Determine whatever your ideas are on the more cosmic level, and then think of how that would trickle into the world. Are their cults now at war? Are they allied and attacking temples of good? Do demons walk the earth? Can undead now enter holy sites/sanctuaries? This one event will not immediately end the world, of course, but to watch as the ripples spread out will certainly motivate your heroes in the future.

 

[Alcamtar]

That's awesome. I am am tired of PCs who always win, who are fated to win (by the DM or the plot) and just ride the gravy train to glory. Epic failure is so much more interesting, and has so much potential for follow-on.

It would be REALLY interesting if Orcus threatened, blackmailed, or even killed one of the PCs' gods (or a close ally). That would nail home the Awful Truth, hit them where it hurts, and send the PCs scrambling to find a new patron/ally, meanwhile Orcus servants are overrunning the planet. Later if the gods themselves cannot directly confront or even resist Orcus for fear of his doomsday weapon, perhaps mortals can enter where gods fear to tread...

 

[aboyd]

What are your thoughts about allowing the PCs to fail a mission? Does it happen in your campaigns? Do you think it's better to fudge things to help them succeed?

Yeah, I let them fail, and I've even had the gang here at En World help me work through it.

In my campaign, the party failed multiple quests, and I just let the world get wrecked. I also let them explore whatever solutions to the mess they wanted. In the end, they decided to simply flee the devastated region and do more adventuring elsewhere. It actually ended up being kinda fun for me -- I got to think about what happens when a huge part of Greyhawk is ruined by intelligent lighting strikes. I created an apocalyptic area that was overrun by lightning-resistant creatures, blue dragons, shocker lizards, etc. Just thinking of the ecology got my brain all fired up.

As for the players, they really didn't care much other than when it started catching up to them -- the bodies of the dead began to flow downriver and eventually made it to a relatively safe region where they were hiding out. They never let on to the townspeople that they had helped the badness along. And for the most part, since only 2 members survived, it was true -- two-thirds of the party consisted of new recruits that really didn't know what was going on.

Anyway, these failures happened often, and were the source of some amazing long-running villains. So failures can be turned into interesting twists in the story. However, you really do need to accept that devastation can occur and allow it to happen. Maybe in your case, the consequence is the death of millions, but the PCs are still alive to react and maybe try to right the situation...?

 

[Oryan77]

I like the ideas that a lot of people are throwing around about one of the PCs gods or a god somehow related to a god a PC worships being killed as a result of Orcus returning.

My question for everyone is, do you think that would be singling out the PC and make it seem like it was more his fault that the group failed to stop Orcus?

I wouldn't kill his god, but the cleric worships Io and admires good dragons, so I'd choose an obscure dragon god as being the victim. But even so, I don't want the Cleric player to feel singled out and think that their failure was mostly his fault (as if I'm punishing his PC for their failure).

I'm just having a hard time getting a feel for this type of scenario. I'm not sure what a player would think if this happened. I don't mind if it made it more personal and the 'group' as a whole felt more guilty, I just don't want a single player to take all the guilt. Or maybe I can come up with scenarios to single out something important to each PC. That actually might be the best route and may make their failure hit home even more.