...Or, from a slightly different point of view, the chargen mechanics contain traps, and many inexperienced or non-math-savvy players fall into them.
When status effects annoy the players
- Thread starter Morrus
- Start date
...Or, from a slightly different point of view, the chargen mechanics contain traps, and many inexperienced or non-math-savvy players fall into them.
thecasualoblivion
First Post
Pretty much. The thing is, in my opinion its a pretty obvious trap. If you have a Will defense that monsters can't miss, you should expect them to spam daze/stun/dominate on you.
This isn't hard to avoid. Lets take a Half-Elf Paladin as an example, one who boosts Wisdom and Charisma, with no stat to boost Fortitude and Reflex:
Level 1:
I use the stat array 16/14/14/13/10/8, giving my Paladin stats of Str10, Con16, Dex13, Int8, Wis14, Cha18. To boost my Reflex further, I choose to go with a Heavy Shield. My Defenses at level 1 are Fort 14/Ref 14/Will 15 and rock solid.
Level 10:
At levels 4 and 8 I boost Wis/Cha, leaving my Fort/Ref alone. Keeping a Heavy Shield and wearing a +2 neck item, my defenses are still solid at Fort 21/Ref 21/Will 23
Level 20
This is where it starts taking some work. I keep with the tradition of boosting Wis/Cha though my 13 Dex becomes 14 and gives me an extra point of Reflex(which I will lose at Epic) Here I take two feats to prop up defenses, those being Paragon Defenses(+1 to Fort/Ref/Will) and Shield Master(Shield gives +2 Fortitude). With a +4 neck item, my Defenses are Fort 31/Reflex 30/Will 32. Not spectacular, but not exploitable weaknesses. Without these feats, my defenses are Fort 28/Ref 29/Will 31. Not horrible, but a little low on Fort/Ref.
Level 30
At Epic I go Demigod, boosting Wis/Cha, and also boost Wis/Cha at 24 and 28. My level 30 stats are Str12, Con18, Dex15, Int10, Wis24, Cha 28. In Epic, I take three more feats to fix my defenses. I retrain Paragon Defenses into Robust Defense(+2 all), and also take Epic Fortitude and Epic Reflex(+4 to each, that stacks with Robust Defenses). With a +6 neck item, my final defenses are Fort 44/Ref 42/Will 43, and rock solid and ready for anything. Without these feats, my Defenses end up Fort 36, Ref 36(34 without shield), Will 41.
36 in Fortitude and Reflex at level 30 does not cut it.
Nifft
Penguin Herder
The next steps in this dance involve the words "System Mastery" and/or "Feat Tax".
Cheers, -- N
thecasualoblivion
First Post
Then System Mastery and Feat Taxes are the problem, not conditions. I'm not saying that they aren't, I'm just saying that if you pay heed to System Mastery and Feat Taxes, a lot of other problems people run into disappear. Being hit too hard by conditions is one of them, and grind is another(optimized characters=faster combat).
Victim
First Post
Actually, I think you can mitigate the effects of some low defenses with other abilities. Our battlerager has terrible Reflex and Will, but Dreadnought often lets him get around the conditions he suffers (along with Temp HP). Similarly, the paladin is generally bringing extra saves and healing to the table, so he can often function despite getting hit on Fort and Reflex a lot.
And with items, it gets even easier to defend even with low defenses. Teleportation tricks make Slow or immobilize less detrimental. Resistances help blunt attacks and can negate many auras and ongoing damage. There's even an item that can cancel stun or dominate.
And with items, it gets even easier to defend even with low defenses. Teleportation tricks make Slow or immobilize less detrimental. Resistances help blunt attacks and can negate many auras and ongoing damage. There's even an item that can cancel stun or dominate.
Fifth Element
Legend
So basically, there are more ways around status effects than not being hit by them? I think there's some truth to that.
Nifft
Penguin Herder
Nope! No such simplistic formulation will accurately depict "the problem".
IMHO, if one were forced to describe "the problem", all one could say is that the game is made of compromises, and these compromises don't suit every single player. Such is often the nature of compromise: it's hard to please everyone.
Cheers, -- N
Diplomat123
First Post
With my player hat on, playing D&D is supposed to be fun. If its not fun, then why play?
That does not mean that i expect to awe the table every time my turn comes around, nor that i should be immune to nasty status conditions.
My personal concern lies in two areas.
1)A single pc being taken out of a long fight. Everyone else is still playing the game, but because of a series of conditions being applied, one player gets to do nothing. Happened to me a few weeks back when i spent 6 out of 7 rounds either dazed and prone, dominated and eventually unconcious (twice) as the monsters beat on my prone sack of bones.
2) Monsters spamming out powers that the players can't avoid. Another example - an encounter (at 11th level) where there was a terrain feature that stunned, a creature that stunned, another creature that stunned on a melee hit, and that also had a ranged burst stunning power. I can't remember if these offered saves, but we didn't have any bonus saving throws to go around.
As a player i don't particularly enjoy missing my turn, but now and again it happens and that is fine. If it happens a lot, particularly to the same person that is unfun.
I am playing a controller of sorts, and yes i do enjoy applying conditions to deny monsters actions. But the DM has plenty more monsters where they came from and i have never managed to shut down his entire turn (maybe a challenge in that). As a player, my pcs tend to emphasis resistance to getting statuses and avoidance to their effects, over out and out damage output. But i can only generate so many bonus saves. When creatures knock you prone a lot, you can buy acrobat boots. Then you run into stuff that dazes, so you take an item for an insta save. Then you run into the dreaded no save, effect lasts until until after the creatures next turn.
At the end of the day, its a game involving dice rolls. Some days the dice love you and you will hit everything and shake off all effects first time. Other days you will flail wildly and achieve nothing. Thems the breaks. But being taken out without much input is not fun.
That does not mean that i expect to awe the table every time my turn comes around, nor that i should be immune to nasty status conditions.
My personal concern lies in two areas.
1)A single pc being taken out of a long fight. Everyone else is still playing the game, but because of a series of conditions being applied, one player gets to do nothing. Happened to me a few weeks back when i spent 6 out of 7 rounds either dazed and prone, dominated and eventually unconcious (twice) as the monsters beat on my prone sack of bones.
2) Monsters spamming out powers that the players can't avoid. Another example - an encounter (at 11th level) where there was a terrain feature that stunned, a creature that stunned, another creature that stunned on a melee hit, and that also had a ranged burst stunning power. I can't remember if these offered saves, but we didn't have any bonus saving throws to go around.
As a player i don't particularly enjoy missing my turn, but now and again it happens and that is fine. If it happens a lot, particularly to the same person that is unfun.
I am playing a controller of sorts, and yes i do enjoy applying conditions to deny monsters actions. But the DM has plenty more monsters where they came from and i have never managed to shut down his entire turn (maybe a challenge in that). As a player, my pcs tend to emphasis resistance to getting statuses and avoidance to their effects, over out and out damage output. But i can only generate so many bonus saves. When creatures knock you prone a lot, you can buy acrobat boots. Then you run into stuff that dazes, so you take an item for an insta save. Then you run into the dreaded no save, effect lasts until until after the creatures next turn.
At the end of the day, its a game involving dice rolls. Some days the dice love you and you will hit everything and shake off all effects first time. Other days you will flail wildly and achieve nothing. Thems the breaks. But being taken out without much input is not fun.
