When status effects annoy the players

[Fanaelialae]

Well... not entirely. The damage they face from their antagonists doesn't scale, so a Wizard who deals himself 5/20 damage is still going down sooner than a Barbarian who deals himself 15/60 damage. The former is two hits away from doom, while the latter is six hits away.

Anyway, I personally don't mind that being hit by a foe takes some choices away. Being hit is a bad result.

I try to use few foes who can Dominate or Stun, and I don't usually put more than one of them in a group -- but Stun and Dominate are tools, and I'm not afraid to use them when I feel they're appropriate.

Cheers, -- N

To me, it's a matter avoiding a situation where "the rich get richer and the poor get poorer." Sure, even with a percentage based mechanic a Barbarian can take more shots than a Wizard. However, to use your example (let's assume a flat 5 damage instead of surge value), the Wizard who deals himself 5/20 is still going down in two hits, but the Barbarian who deals himself 5/60 is effectively at full hp, since it will still take eight hits to drop him. The choice becomes trivial for the Barbarian, but remains quite non-trivial for the Wizard.

The only reason I could see for using a flat cost rather than a percentage cost would be if, for whatever reason, you felt it was appropriate for high hp characters to ignore status conditions more easily than low hp characters. Since defenders are by default high hp, and also tend to suffer the lion's share of conditions, I'd say there's some argument to be made there. That said, I still think percentage is the fairest approach, since defenders tend to already receive a lot of care from leaders (IME).

By the way, I'm not saying that I dislike status conditions. I'm a fan, and I think that without them combat in 4e would be boring.

I'm simply of the opinion (from personal experience) that there comes a point of overkill. Conditions can spice up an encounter, or drown its flavor entirely depending on just how much they're used.

As I mentioned before, last weekend my DM ran the party through a fight where most of us spent the first half of the fight with most of the following conditions:

Dazed
Prone
Unable to use encounters/dailies
Speed reduced to 0 (until you spend a move action)
Weakened

Since most of the creatures won initiative, we spent a long time in that encounter neither feeling threatened (their damage was too low) nor like we had any meaningful options to alter the course of the fight. We were mostly just waiting for the DM to roll poorly. There wasn't any challenge and because of that the fight dragged. It was quite probably the worst encounter I've ever seen from 4e and hence a prime example (IMO) of what not to do.

(My critique of that encounter notwithstanding, he honestly is a good DM.)

That's why, when I run, I like every encounter to have a healthy mix of heavy hitters and condition dealers. When in doubt, I'll err on the side of extra damage because the worst that can happen is an easy, quick, yet exciting fight.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

I would wonder if there is a hidden problem here. A question for those who have issues with status effects would be whether this problem occurs at high levels or low levels? At high levels, poorly built characters can have a low defense or two. I mean really low(5 to 10 points lower). Attacks that add effects tend to target defenses other than AC, and a Fighter whose Will is 8 points lower than his other defenses who is being spammed with debilitating attacks has a real problem. The game is based around the assumption that AC is equal to your level+12-17 and your non-AC defense are equal to your level+10-14. If you allow your defenses to fall below those numbers, you are making yourself vulnerable to being stunlocked or the equivalent.

This problem tends to occur at higher levels, where defenses start to scale awkwardly unless you spend character creation options to keep them up to par.

A lot of people build their characters with no real concern for this, and they pay the price. That being said, masterwork armor, boots/hats/belts that increase Ref/Will/Fort, Paragon/Epic defense boosting feats, shields, and smart stat placement can ensure your character can go thirty levels while having Defenses that stay within those parameters. I've built 50 pregenerated characters up to level 30, and none of them has an achilles heel(most of them have their level+10-11 minimum in all defenses). Having a truly weak defense is a character creation choice, and a bad one at that. Say what you will about 4E, but the numbers are important.


To me, the conditions are fine, as long as they stay within the assumed accuracy for attacks in the game's basic design(40-60%). When being stunned/immobilized/whatever becomes 80%+ accurate, then there is a problem. The tools exist that a PC should never be in that situation, but many people ignore them.

 

[Pseudopsyche]

In the OP's position, I would first try solutions that work within the existing system. Design encounters with more brutes and fewer controllers. Award magic items or boons that allow PCs to remove status effects. Sacrifice realistic or optimal monster tactics in favor of spreading the love. Include fantastic terrain that grants immunity to certain effects, which might make the battlefield more dynamic, too.

Next I would experiment with house rules that focus on giving the players additional choices when they lose their actions. Perhaps let them spend a healing surge to remove a status effect. Or maybe they must spend HP instead, or an action point. Allow characters (on both sides) to "Aid Another" on saves as a minor action (roll 10+ on a save to grant a +2 bonus).

I must admit I'm puzzled by the suggestion to ditch one's friends or tell them they're playing the game wrong.

 

[TarionzCousin]

New Statuses:

Tongue-tied - You can only use powers that have only one word in their titles.
Thirsty - You must drink something this round.
Grumpy - Take another player's character sheet and complain about his/her powers.
Jealous - Admit that you wanted to date her first.
Spacey - Count the holes in the ceiling. Wait. Why are there holes in the ceiling?
Funky - Bite your lower lip with your teeth, clench your fists and shuffle around to an imaginary beat.
Hyper - You just drank the last 3 Mountain Dews, all at once.
Farty - Pull my finger.
Wasted - "Dude... doooooood!"

 

[Talysian]

New Statuses:

Tongue-tied - You can only use powers that have only one word in their titles.
Thirsty - You must drink something this round.
Grumpy - Take another player's character sheet and complain about his/her powers.
Jealous - Admit that you wanted to date her first.
Spacey - Count the holes in the ceiling. Wait. Why are there holes in the ceiling?
Funky - Bite your lower lip with your teeth, clench your fists and shuffle around to an imaginary beat.
Hyper - You just drank the last 3 Mountain Dews, all at once.
Farty - Pull my finger.
Wasted - "Dude... doooooood!"

So is this the names of the new 9 Dwarves?

 

[Nifft]

So is this the names of the new 9 Dwarves?

The dwarf in my 4e game is definitely "Farty".

Cheers, -- N

 

[Vaslov]

For tracking the statuses and remembering to roll at the end of the round to get rid of them I've yet to find a great solution. Trying to mark miniatures with it some how always seems to slow us down. Combats with lots of statuses running around on the PCs can be a real pain. Best solution I have so far is have one player act as the status master who tries to keep everyone honest and aware of what is out there.

I'm playing a rogue in a 4e game where the DM seems to have a fondness for picking creatures that have an at will daze attacks. It drives me nuts. Even if I manage to get by the save whom ever I am flanking with seems to fail. End result is quite a number of battles go on where I have very few attacks with sneak attack damage.

Then I look at the barbarian character. For him it is inconvenient that he only has one action, but he can still hit hard with the daze effect. For him it is a nuisance, but not a game changer for how he plays his character.

I mentioned it to the DM and I have seen less encounters with daze attacks, but it still comes up. Once I identify that I likely be without my SA damage I change tactics and typically go after minions or find some other way to be helpful as my dps is not going to turn the battle. At a minimum I assist others attacks to help ensure someone can hit. (hmm, can you assist someone to help with a save roll? I'll have to read up on that.) It can be a bit frustrating, but I also find it part of the challenge of the class.

 

[Jhaelen]

Baseball is silly.

I agree. It's a terrible game. I have no idea why it's still being played in some parts of the world. Maybe a nostalgia thing?

 

[Raven Crowking]

Out of curiosity, why isn't this in the 4e forums?

 

[OchreJelly]

I hope Dominion really wouldn't be a benchmark experience. I've heard it described as playing parallel solitaire, which more or less fits my experience with it.

It sounds like you haven't given Dominion a fair shake. There is plenty of player interaction but it's mostly indirect. You're all competing for the same resources, as an example, and it pays to adjust your strategy dependent on your opponents' choices. All this becomes more evident the more you play. Great game.