When the Session goes Pear Shaped

[S'mon]

@S'mon: How do the players feel about it? Are they bitter or did they think it was awesome?

It sounds great, the stuff of legends anyway. Hmm a whole orc tribe. So close...

I wonder if the players have learned anything from it? I wonder if a PC drops is it time to sound the retreat or maybe - glup - surrender?? Or parley, play for time.

Some discussion here:
4e D&D - Raven's Wing: Vault of Larin Karr (full) - 12:30pm-ca 5.30pm fortnightly Sundays, next game 7th February - The London Dungeons & Dragons Meetup Group (London, England) - Meetup.com

I have tried surrendering in a 3e Midnight game, to save another, downed PC - it worked for me, I later escaped, but the other PC still died during a bungled rescue attempt by the two PCs who'd escaped the initial battle.

This time AFAIK it didn't occur to the players to surrender or parley, probably because the fight still seemed winnable until the end. Maybe next time? Given how close it was, the orcs might have been amenable to parley at the right moment. I think the blood lust was running pretty high on both sides, though!

 

[evildmguy]

This time AFAIK it didn't occur to the players to surrender or parley, probably because the fight still seemed winnable until the end.

This.

Recently, either I have been able to pick things well or things were just that close. In several recent fights, it's expected there will be more monsters and they will go down but keep fighting. However, if a PC ever goes down, they start looking at their options and what they need to do, including running.

However, from my perspective, it really came down to the die roll. Had the monsters been doing just a bit better and the PCs just a bit worse, it might have gone a very different way. I don't know if it would have been a TPK but close.

I don't have enough xp with 4E to say.

edg

 

[Alekto]

Re. S'mon's near TPK...

I play the Invoker in his Vault of Larin Karr campaign - one of the two surviors!

From my standpoint, the combat started off as well as could be expected given the alarm had been raised and the orcs were already mustering their defences when we arrived. Most of the minions went down in the first two rounds which, I think, encouraged all of us to think that it would be a tough but ultimately winnable combat.

Unfortunately it was at that point that the Priest of Yurtrus and the Berserker arrived and within that one round the balance had shifted and we were firmly on the defensive. From then on characters started going down all too quickly, and with our single leader having expended his two Majestic Word heals in the first two rounds keeping the Defender and Rogue/Sorcerer alive, there wasn't a lot we could do. Some PCs were able to do Heal checks to activate unused Second Winds, but the Orc Priest's ranged attacks - attacks that just kept recharging! - took us out often before we could even stand up!

With the benefit of hindsight discussing things after the game we agreed there were a few poor tactical decisions made on our part that contributed to the near TPK. Equally S'mon's sudden run of good dice rolls and a corresponding run of bad dice rolls on our part could be as much to blame.

As S'mon's pointed out, with Vault of Larin Karr being a sand box, we have run from (orc horde, roper) or negotiated our way out of (elves) several almost certainly lethal encounters. That this was a combat we *could* have won meant we stayed and fought rather than consider other options. By the time we tried to run, half the PCs were down and the rest were too low on hp and too scattered to be able to retreat safely.

 

[Nehustan]

Ardim Nalashet RIP

Hi there, I played Ardim Nalashet a 2nd level Rogue/Sorcerer, who I had grown quite attached to (we came back to VoLK after a few months break). That said yesterday was awesome; while we now need new characters, it helps the overall D&D experience for something like this to happen. It was touch and go for a while, we nearly managed it, and the characters all died well

I guess I get to play a defender in VoLK for a while now.

 

[S'mon]

Re. S'mon's near TPK...

I play the Invoker in his Vault of Larin Karr campaign - one of the two surviors!

From my standpoint, the combat started off as well as could be expected given the alarm had been raised and the orcs were already mustering their defences when we arrived. Most of the minions went down in the first two rounds which, I think, encouraged all of us to think that it would be a tough but ultimately winnable combat.

Unfortunately it was at that point that the Priest of Yurtrus and the Berserker arrived and within that one round the balance had shifted and we were firmly on the defensive. From then on characters started going down all too quickly, and with our single leader having expended his two Majestic Word heals in the first two rounds keeping the Defender and Rogue/Sorcerer alive, there wasn't a lot we could do.

One thought that occurred to me was that it might have gone better if you had sought to create/maintain a battle-line at the top of the cliff, rather than spreading out so much - eg you could have all done your Move actions to move up to the cliffftop, then held your Standard actions until everyone was up there in some kind of order. That would probably have meant the Rogue/Sorc and Fighter taking far less damage early on, so the Bard wouldn't have been expending resources keeping them up. Of course when bunched up you'd have been more vulnerable to area attacks like the Plague Priest's Swarm of Flies, but against vastly superior numbers it would probably be worth it.

This was probably a fight where 2 Defenders working in concert to create a perimeter would have helped a lot too; your 1 Controller/1 Leader/1 Defender/3 Striker array hits very hard but was quite fragile, especially as your only Defender Monty was a greatsword Fighter and charged into the orcs like a Barbarian.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

My worst was when I railroaded the party into an adventure, since it was all I had prepared to run. They weren't into it from the beginning. When they reached the climactic battle where they had to hold out against a raging horde, the adventure was planned so that the PCs had to hold out for a certain number of rounds before help arrived. It was all supposed to be tense and dramatic as the party saw they were in serious trouble. Unfortunately I overestimated their opponents and the party cleaned up with very little difficulty. It made for a dull game and I was scrambling to improvise the reactions of their - no longer needed - rescuers, since the party had no reason to be grateful for their help. It all ended with a "thud."

Same campaign led to one of my best as I learned my lesson and didn't railroad the party when they balked at where I anticipated them going. I tossed in a mini-adventure at the inn they were staying as a delaying tactic until I could prep for the next session. They loved it, drawing conclusions that didn't really exist about its relevance into their larger adventure (which I promptly adopted).

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

Well, some sessions are 'meh', and a few are not good. My worst game was the one where I introduced a new, super-realistic, diceless mass battle system, and bored the players rigid for 4 hours. Running 'Necropolis' by EGG was a disaster, nearly a campaign-killer, but we realised that and abandoned it pretty swiftly. 'Meh' episodes where the written adventure is playable but not great are fairly common - notable recent-ish disappointments include DCC 'Dreaming Caverns of the Duergar' (dull, pointless caverns each with a duergar or derro); and the finale of X5 Temple of Death (the scenario includes a flying ship that short-circuits the adventure).

I quite liked your diceless mass battle system, if it's the same one we're talking about.

But the ending of Necropolis was just appalling - not your fault, by any means, but appalling.

For my own story, I realised half-way through a session that I'd tried to completely railroad the group in a particular direction and wasn't helping them do something else. I had to actually call a stop to the adventure and talk it over with them before carrying on. I made it the last session of the adventure - it wasn't working out.

Since then I've stuck with published games when I'm running, as it takes the pressure off me. If everyone knows and understands it's pregen characters in a pregen world, all bets are off and you get some fun games. Let the other DMs construct epic campaigns - I'm much better at fun one-shots.

 

[Alekto]

One thought that occurred to me was that it might have gone better if you had sought to create/maintain a battle-line at the top of the cliff, rather than spreading out so much - eg you could have all done your Move actions to move up to the cliffftop, then held your Standard actions until everyone was up there in some kind of order. That would probably have meant the Rogue/Sorc and Fighter taking far less damage early on, so the Bard wouldn't have been expending resources keeping them up. Of course when bunched up you'd have been more vulnerable to area attacks like the Plague Priest's Swarm of Flies, but against vastly superior numbers it would probably be worth it.

I'd agree there. Given that scenario, I'd have been able to use my Daily - Invocation of Ice and Fire - to block off a large part of the cavern from access to the orc minions, limiting them to a smaller number able to attack us HTH. OTOH I wouldn't have been able to take so many down with Astral Terror as I did!

This was probably a fight where 2 Defenders working in concert to create a perimeter would have helped a lot too; your 1 Controller/1 Leader/1 Defender/3 Striker array hits very hard but was quite fragile, especially as your only Defender Monty was a greatsword Fighter and charged into the orcs like a Barbarian.

It would have been interesting to see how that combat would have played out if we were fielding two Defenders or even two Leaders.

 

[Rechan]

This didin't happen DURING the session itself, but it's a honorable enough mention.

The PCs were going up against an insane villain. Afterwards, via a journal, they found out why she was insane: she had a miscarriage. I had put that in there just so that there was a plausible reason she went off the deep end, and make the villain a little sympathetic in the players' eyes.

The female player, however, thought otherwise.

After the session, she chewed me out, and informed me I was immature and insensitive. It had never occurred to me that it might be a problem.

 

[S'mon]

I quite liked your diceless mass battle system, if it's the same one we're talking about.

Hi Matt - yeah, Kerstin wasn't too happy, though.