D&D 5E When to Roll Initiative

[Hriston]

If the Assassin has set things up well, then I might give him Advantage on the Dex Check for Initiative. Make sense to me, and helps with the Assassinate Feature.

Although I'm not completely opposed to granting advantage on an initiative roll, I'd be reluctant to do so unless some circumstance actually enabled the assassin to be quicker than his opponent throughout the entire combat, considering that initiative is a standing Dex check that will be used to adjudicate the timing of all conflicting actions in the combat, not just who gets to attack first. It would have to be something like the assassin being hasted, although I know that advantage on Dex checks isn't an effect of the spell, but something that would apply for the duration of combat.

 

[Athinar]

My Halfling Assassin with Cloak of Elevnkind Rolls stealth roll of 30, Orcs rolls with disadv a 2, Halfling is hidden, Assassin with surprise attacks Orc War chief, Orc War chief wins the initiative and kills the hidden assassin before the assassin can shoot the arrow - 5.0 Rule, I think that is how Initiative in 5.0 is done

 

[MG.0]

My Halfling Assassin with Cloak of Elevnkind Rolls stealth roll of 30, Orcs rolls with disadv a 2, Halfling is hidden, Assassin with surprise attacks Orc War chief, Orc War chief wins the initiative and kills the hidden assassin before the assassin can shoot the arrow - 5.0 Rule, I think that is how Initiative in 5.0 is done

A surprised creatire cannot move or take actions in the first round of combat, regardless of initiative. They can, however, take reactions after their turn has passed, so the Orc War chief couldn't attack the assassin first, but he could take a reaction when the assassin shoots, provided he had something to do. It is a matter of contention whether or not the orc is still surprised after his turn has passed, which affects whether or not the assassin does critical damage on a hit. My opinion (and apparently the position of one of the game designers) is that the assassin would make a normal attack as the orc is no longer surprised.

 

[Lanefan]

I'm not sure if this was in response to my assertion that in 5E the 'surprise roll' had become part of the initiative roll, but if so allow me to explain. I was responding to references up-thread to the surprise roll of earlier editions. In AD&D in particular, the surprise roll was used to determine who was surprised and for how long only after the DM had independently determined that one party or the other (or both) was completely unaware of the other's presence. There was no skill system by which this was determined, but it was rather decided by the DM based on the circumstances.

Actually, it's decided by the dice: every potentially-hostile encounter begins with a surprise roll. Circumstances then dictate what the results of those rolls might lead to in play.

Lanefan

 

[MG.0]

Actually, it's decided by the dice: every potentially-hostile encounter begins with a surprise roll. Circumstances then dictate what the results of those rolls might lead to in play.

Lanefan

Not true.

From pg. 62 of the 1st edition DMG:

Prior detection negates the possibility of surprise. Thus, magical devices
can possibly negate surprise by detection of thoughts or intentions. Noise
can negate surprise considerations, whether the sound is the normal
progress of the party or the effect of a fruitless attempt to open a door.
Light can spoil the chance of surprise. The particular condition of a monster
can likewise negote any chance of it being surprised. In any event, it is of
utmost importonce to realize that surprise can be and often is unilateral.
That is, one party can be surprised while the other, somehow aware of the
other's presence, can NOT be so taken. In all such cases, merely roll for the
party which is subiect to the condition and do not roll for the other.


Edit:

From pg. 102 of the 2nd edition DMG:

Before an encounter begins, a check for surprise may be necessary.

 

[Athinar]

A surprised creatire cannot move or take actions in the first round of combat, regardless of initiative. They can, however, take reactions after their turn has passed, so the Orc War chief couldn't attack the assassin first, but he could take a reaction when the assassin shoots, provided he had something to do. It is a matter of contention whether or not the orc is still surprised after his turn has passed, which affects whether or not the assassin does critical damage on a hit. My opinion (and apparently the position of one of the game designers) is that the assassin would make a normal attack as the orc is no longer surprised.

This person did not get the joke

 

[MG.0]

This person did not get the joke

If I see a joke, I'll let you know.

 

[Hriston]

Actually, it's decided by the dice: every potentially-hostile encounter begins with a surprise roll. Circumstances then dictate what the results of those rolls might lead to in play.

Lanefan

Not true.

From pg. 62 of the 1st edition DMG:

Prior detection negates the possibility of surprise. Thus, magical devices
can possibly negate surprise by detection of thoughts or intentions. Noise
can negate surprise considerations, whether the sound is the normal
progress of the party or the effect of a fruitless attempt to open a door.
Light can spoil the chance of surprise. The particular condition of a monster
can likewise negote any chance of it being surprised. In any event, it is of
utmost importonce to realize that surprise can be and often is unilateral.
That is, one party can be surprised while the other, somehow aware of the
other's presence, can NOT be so taken. In all such cases, merely roll for the
party which is subiect to the condition and do not roll for the other.

Yeah, that's what I was reading too. To me, this means that you only make a surprise roll in the situation that one side or both are unaware of the other, the situation that in 5E we call 'surprise'. The roll then tells you which side is more surprised or if they are both equally surprised, or if they both recover quickly and are not effectively surprised at all. A lack of awareness, in the 1E system, is the prerequisite for surprise. The surprising party's attempt at stealth is thus implied to have succeeded before the surprise roll is made.

In 5E, what most folks seem to think of as the surprise roll, is actually the stealth vs perception check. This is made simply because someone is trying to be stealthy. If they succeed, and the creature is 'surprised', that gets us up to the point in time where in 1E we would have then rolled for surprise to find out how many segments of beat-down the creature could expect to receive. In 5E this is accomplished by initiative, which in 1E, I'm sure you remember, you didn't roll until after the surprise round was over.

So to sum things up, the way I see it, in 1E you had two systems: the surprise roll, to be used when one side or the other was unaware of its enemies, and initiative, for use under all other conditions in which combat begins, including upon the conclusion of the surprise round. Whereas in 5E you only have one system: initiative, to be used under all circumstances including surprise. This seems like an improvement to me.

 

[MG.0]

So to sum things up, the way I see it, in 1E you had two systems: the surprise roll, to be used when one side or the other was unaware of its enemies, and initiative, for use under all other conditions in which combat begins, including upon the conclusion of the surprise round. Whereas in 5E you only have one system: initiative, to be used under all circumstances including surprise. This seems like an improvement to me.

That's how I see it too.

I guess 3rd edition was different? Perhaps because I played 1st and 2nd but not third or 4th is why that interpretation seems most natural to me.

 

[Lanefan]

Yeah, that's what I was reading too. To me, this means that you only make a surprise roll in the situation that one side or both are unaware of the other,

I often use the surprise roll to *tell me* who's aware/alert/ready and-or who isn't in situations when an encounter is inevitable. Way quicker and easier than a bunch of perception checks.

In 5E, what most folks seem to think of as the surprise roll, is actually the stealth vs perception check. This is made simply because someone is trying to be stealthy. If they succeed, and the creature is 'surprised', that gets us up to the point in time where in 1E we would have then rolled for surprise to find out how many segments of beat-down the creature could expect to receive. In 5E this is accomplished by initiative, which in 1E, I'm sure you remember, you didn't roll until after the surprise round was over.

What if nobody's trying to be stealthy. One group walks around a corner while another group approaches the same corner going the other way. Both groups *could* be surprised, or just one, or neither; and in any situation this needs to be determined before initiative gets rolled.

So to sum things up, the way I see it, in 1E you had two systems: the surprise roll, to be used when one side or the other was <potentially> unaware of its enemies, and initiative, for use under all other conditions in which combat begins, including upon the conclusion of the surprise round. Whereas in 5E you only have one system: initiative, to be used under all circumstances including surprise. This seems like an improvement to me.

(included word is mine)

No, you still have two systems in 5e as you're ignoring the perception checks (and stealth checks, where appropriate) before initiative starts. Also, in 5e as written you've got the absurd possibility of a person/group/whatever being taken by surprise in the fiction yet still able to act first in the mechanical resolution due to initiative luck, which is flat-out wrong.

By the way, 1e initiative as written is a hopeless mess; and friends steer friends away from it. 1e surprise mechanics, however, are nice, simple, and worth keeping.

Lan-"surprise!"-efan