D&D 5E When to Roll Initiative

[Huntsman57]

In 2E initiative was rolled every round. While this has not be the way to handle a fight since then, and doing it in this way can sometimes require us to make adjustments to how other aspects of the game system works, we haven't been able to give up on round by round initiative.

 

[bgbarcus]

The concerns over initiative ruining a perfectly good ambush are easy to understand. It took me a while to get past the idea that ambushes are now far more difficult than they used to be. But, after playing with initiative and surprise as written, I decided the rules work very well, even with that (@#$%&) Alert feat in play.

The D&D world is a dangerous place so it is reasonable to think most residents are watching for threats. The type of people who take up adventuring or run afoul of adventurers would be even more wary. An ambush could be spoiled by the noise of a bowstring, a dislodged pebble, a startled bird, or any number of other things. Rolling initiative at the beginning, before the ambush attack is resolved, is the game's way of handling the vagaries of luck.

Classes like assassin which depends heavily on winning initiative are built with high dexterity, thus a greater chance at going first in the turn order. DM's can reward exceptional planning by granting the ambusher advantage, players can improve their odds of making the ambush work by using Inspiration on the initiative roll. Still, the target of the ambush may just be having a really lucky day and notice something that lets him avoid the surprise.

The 5e initiative and surprise rules feel strange at first but try them as written. The authors of the game did a good job with the rules but a lousy job of explaining why the rules work.

 

[Mavkatzer]

I've gone whole battles without rolling intitative, and had players take turn as they made narrative sense. When it becomes difficult to follow that narrative, due to the complexities of the details of the battle, I have the party roll just to keep the act of running the battle simple.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

I roll initiative as soon as it becomes clear that combat is about to start, when weapons are drawn, when the monster flips out when the PC's say they're attacking- in the case of an ambush it gets rolled when the players or monsters say "We launch our attack"

 

[Flamestrike]

One of my pet peeves is initiative being rolled when there is no combat. I dislike when the DM turns to me and says "It's your turn. What do you do?" and my response is "Why would I do anything out of the ordinary. I don't see any enemies, there is no combat taking place." It completely ruins the advantage of having a high initiative and it entirely negates certain abilities(like the rogue's advantage if he attacks before his enemy has had their turn yet). Not only that but it wastes time and turns as half the group has to say "I guess I do nothing since there's nothing to attack".

Thats a problem with your DM not giving you the information he should give you.

If youre rolling initiative its due to hostilities occurring. You should always know why you rolled initiative.

If it was a hidden creature initiating combat, he should state 'You hear the twang of a bow from the woods and notice an arrow screaching towards you. Roll initiative' or something similar.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Thats a problem with your DM not giving you the information he should give you.

If youre rolling initiative its due to hostilities occurring. You should always know why you rolled initiative.

If it was a hidden creature initiating combat, he should state 'You hear the twang of a bow from the woods and notice an arrow screaching towards you. Roll initiative' or something similar.

Yeah, that's what should happen. But I've had DMs roll for initiative when there was absolutely nothing to see or hear. Some enemies were hiding nearby. They were planning on attacking us once they got in position but weren't there yet. So he rolled for initiative. None of us made our perception checks so we didn't spot the enemy sneaking up on us but they didn't make any attacks on us either. So we rolled for initiative and the DM said "You are in a warehouse surrounded by boxes...what do you do?" and we all either had to metagame and assume something was about to attack us or just say "I continue to walk forward like I was before we rolled initiative."

That's why people who don't make their perception checks aren't supposed to get actions in the first round when they are surprised, so the DM can skip all the people's actions who don't have anything to do. It's just some DMs don't know when you use Surprise.

 

[Flamestrike]

Yeah, that's what should happen. But I've had DMs roll for initiative when there was absolutely nothing to see or hear. Some enemies were hiding nearby. They were planning on attacking us once they got in position but weren't there yet. So he rolled for initiative. None of us made our perception checks so we didn't spot the enemy sneaking up on us but they didn't make any attacks on us either.

This is where he screwed up. He needed to describe the attacks. Re being attacked by hidden creatures in a warehouse (and surprised):

'Bursting from behind the crates, several thugs charge at you with weapons drawn and malice in their eyes. You're all surprised. Roll initiative'

or

'You suddenly get an overwhelming sense of dread, as the twang of multiple bowstrings echoes around the warehouse and the whoosh of arrows fills the air. You're all surprised. Roll initiative'

So we rolled for initiative and the DM said "You are in a warehouse surrounded by boxes...what do you do?" and we all either had to metagame and assume something was about to attack us or just say "I continue to walk forward like I was before we rolled initiative."

Your DM screwed up. He failed to give you the narration of *what* triggered the combat sequence beginning. He didnt give you the information he should have.

That's why people who don't make their perception checks aren't supposed to get actions in the first round when they are surprised, so the DM can skip all the people's actions who don't have anything to do. It's just some DMs don't know when you use Surprise.

Nah man, surprise models being caught 'flat footed' or with your pants down.

Your DM should have given you enough information to know why the game had switched from narrative time to combat time. You know like:

(In parlay with a BBEG who decides to attack based on a failed persuasion check by the PC's)

The wizard you were speaking to suddenly gets an angry look on his face and begins waving his hands togther, chanting and rubbing some bat guano and sulphur together.. roll initiative.

(Being busted sneaking up on some rogues)

The guys in leather armor turn and spot you, raising loaded crossbows and taking aim at you. Roll initiative.

(Being surprised by an invisible dragon)

From the otherwise empty room, you hear the monstrous inhalation of breath and see the form of a large red dragon flicker in the corner; flames curling around its nostrils and mouth. You are all surprised, roll initative.

 

[Lanefan]

'You suddenly get an overwhelming sense of dread, as the twang of multiple bowstrings echoes around the warehouse and the whoosh of arrows fills the air. You're all surprised. Roll initiative'

From the otherwise empty room, you hear the monstrous inhalation of breath and see the form of a large red dragon flicker in the corner; flames curling around its nostrils and mouth. You are all surprised, roll initative.

This here is something that really really annoys me about how 5e does its surprise stuff: as far as I'm concerned if you're that surprised you shouldn't even GET initiative until the first attack has resolved. If you're surprised by the whoosh of close-range arrows in the air you're not even going to get your shield up before they arrive, never mind do anything else of use.

Also, turn it around: the party spend ages setting up an ambush - all goes well, they get the drop on the foes, all the stealth and perception checks come up aces for the party - and due to poor initiative rolls half the opponents get to react and-or attack before the party does. Ridiculous.

Far better would be that the surpriser automatically acts before anything else happens, then rolls regular initiative with everyone else.

Lan-"surprise!"-efan

 

[Flamestrike]

This here is something that really really annoys me about how 5e does its surprise stuff: as far as I'm concerned if you're that surprised you shouldn't even GET initiative until the first attack has resolved.

Why must the attack be finalised before you get a chance to react?

5E is very clear that upon hostilities erupting there is a slight chance you might be able to do something (if youre quick enough, and have a relevant reaction to use) even if surprised by (say) an invisible dragon breathing fire.

The dragon breathes a masive line of flames, and you notice the blast coming your way. COmbat is triggered. You roll initiative. A dex (reflexes) test.

If the dragon wins, he goes first and youre toast. No reactions or actions possible (youre surprised). Then its your turn (you cant do anything, but can now take reactions). Then on turn 2 the dragon flies over and full attacks you (to which you might be able to cast shield or use the parry manouver). After that you can finally take actions.

If you win (roll higher on initaitive), you still cant take actions on your turn (you have to sit there like a drooling idiot while you get burnt to death) but might just be able to use a reaction to raise your shield in time (if youre a shield master fighter) or cast absorb elements (if youre a wizard) when the dragons firebreath is resolved on its turn.

If you're surprised by the whoosh of close-range arrows in the air you're not even going to get your shield up before they arrive, never mind do anything else of use.

Thats what the dex (initiative) check is for. Maybe you will, maybe you wont. If youre particualrly alert (the alert feat) are a high level barbarian (feral instinct) a champion (superior athlete) or have a really high dex, it all helps.

Also, turn it around: the party spend ages setting up an ambush - all goes well, they get the drop on the foes, all the stealth and perception checks come up aces for the party - and due to poor initiative rolls half the opponents get to react and-or attack before the party does. Ridiculous.

Dude, a surprised creature cant attack before the party. They miss thier first turn.

So your ambushing PC's trigger the ambush. The enemy are surpised. Initiative is rolled.

Assume the bad guys go first. They cant take any actions on turn 1 (aside from stand there like grinning idiots). The party attacks first.

If the bad guys rolled crap for initiative and the party win, they have to endure 2 x attacks from each PC (one on turn 1, then the monsters turn 1 theyre surprised and cant act, and then another round of attacks on turn 2).

If you housrule some extra attack to occur outside of the combat round sequence, that could mean up to three attacks against a surprised creature before it can react. In 5E, thats a death sentence.

Far better would be that the surpriser automatically acts before anything else happens, then rolls regular initiative with everyone else.

They aready do get an automatic action on turn 1. Surprised creatures cant act on turn 1. So it doesnt matter if they roll a billion on that dex check, theyre copping an arrow to the face first.

The Dex check (initiative0 is just to see if surprised creatures can possibly still take split second reactions before getting an arrow to the heart, and to see if they have to endure 2 x full attacks before acting, or just the one.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

...

I really like that detailed analysis. There a two things that are making it difficult for me to to do it that way, so hopefully you can convince me there is a good solution.

1) Sometimes attacks happen in darkness and/or silence. Or in darkness and/or silence even. Occasionally, it's just physically impossible for the target of an ambush to even be aware of an attack coming their way. In such a situation, how would you deal with them winning initiative?

2) The assassin subclass seems a little weak if they can't rely on their assassinate ability kicking in. It's annoying to have phenomenal Stealth, excellent initiative, and yet still have the average person be able to sense your arrow flying at them in time enough to react 25% of the time.