D&D 5E When to Roll Initiative

[bgbarcus]

You could choose to roll only for the creatures who can act and roll for the rest at the start of the round in which they can act

That doesn't work. You still need the surprised creatures to have a position in the turn order during the first round to know when they can use reactions. Assassinate also relies on position in the turn order during the first round.

 

[BoldItalic]

The rules are a lot more similar than you're implying here. It boils down to creatures that are aware of their opponents get to act in the first round of the encounter and ones that aren't, and are thus surprised, don't. Exactly how initiative rolls are handled are immaterial. You could choose to roll only for the creatures who can act and roll for the rest at the start of the round in which they can act or roll for everybody as long as you skip the ones who are surprised that first round. You may have a little more info to work with on the PC side of the screen with the latter because you'll know when in the order your surprised buddies will be able to go, but it's hardly a game-breaking difference.

The main difference is that in 3e, you only got a partial round in that surprise round while in 5e, you get your full round.

Sorry, but that doesn't quite work. You have to roll initiative straight away, even for creatures who are surprised, because it determines when they are allowed to start taking reactions. In the first round they can take reactions after their first turn, as determined by their initiative, even if they can take no action in that turn because of being surprised.

You can't morph the rules of 5e into creating a surprise round where one side does nothing at all. Partly because there are no 'sides' as such and surprise is an individual thing, but mainly because even surprised creatures are allowed to react during the first round.

(edit - ninja'd by bgbarcus )

 

[Noctem]

At my table I begin the encounter after whatever provoked an encounter to begin is resolved. IE:

The thug in the marketplace stalked his target undetected (stealth vs passive perception) by the noble until the moment when the thug stabs the noble in the back. I would narrate that the crowd around the noble is drowning any ambient noise and that the trinket he is looking at appears to be overpriced until suddenly he feels a blade between his ribs. I would resolve damage for that attack, determine who is surprised (in this case everyone who didn't notice the thug as a threat until he stabbed the noble) and then have everyone roll initiative and go from there.

To take an example from the PHB, the party is walking down a hallway and suddenly one of their members is engulfed into a gelatinous cube no one had noticed as a threat until it had already swallowed one of their own. The attack the cube made is resolved and once that happens, I determine who is surprised (anyone who didn't notice the cube until it engulfed a party member), then roll initiative and go from there.

The warband about to ambush the caravan might give itself away by sounding a horn to launch the attack, anyone who wasn't aware of the warband as a threat before the horn was blown is surprised. Roll initiative.

The archer secretly posted above the throne room fires his arrow into the kings skull before anyone realizes what just happened. Everyone who wasn't aware that the archer was a threat is surprised, roll initiative and go from there.

And so on. I've gotten lots of knee jerk reactions from this way of starting encounters from people online who really just aren't interested in a discussion so I'm curious to see if anyone will be in this thread.

 

[BoldItalic]

This was on Twitter about a week ago:

Camellia Kitasake @CKCamellia
@JeremyECrawford Can a hidden creature attack an unsuspecting target before combat begins?

Jeremy Crawford ‏@JeremyECrawford Dec 3
Outside combat, you roll initiative if you declare an attack against a foe. You then take action on your turn. #DnD

So that's the official answer, but ...

And so on. I've gotten lots of knee jerk reactions from this way of starting encounters from people online who really just aren't interested in a discussion so I'm curious to see if anyone will be in this thread.

Your way is fun too. A bit brutal, maybe, but if your players are motivated by even the possibility of that happening suddenly at any time, and if that keeps their attention from wandering, it's a good application of the "story trumps rules" rule Out of interest, how would you handle a sudden attack on a character with the Alert feat, say, who can't be surprised, although his fellows might be? Or would you just attack someone else, instead?

 

[Valador]

This was on Twitter about a week ago:

Just to piggyback off this.

Steven @welshstevenc1
@ChrisPerkinsDnD Are attacks allowed outside of initiative combat? Is initiative rolled before or after an attack is declared? Forum debate.

Christopher Perkins ‏@ChrisPerkinsDnD Dec 2 Renton, WA
Christopher Perkins Retweeted Steven
The PH states that initiative is rolled "when combat starts," which I take to mean before any attack is resolved. Christopher Perkins added,

 

[Noctem]

This was on Twitter about a week ago:


So that's the official answer, but ...


Your way is fun too. A bit brutal, maybe, but if your players are motivated by even the possibility of that happening suddenly at any time, and if that keeps their attention from wandering, it's a good application of the "story trumps rules" rule

Thanks for linking an official response. I just prefer my way of doing things because I don't have players sit there in initiative asking why they rolled it, the reason for the encounter starting is always obvious and clear to the party, surprise is never wasted (IE half the first round no one knows what's going on till the person who decided to attack gets his turn and other comical situations that harm immersion), etc.. I just found that this solves the problems the group and I noticed when we started playing 5e and I haven't had complaints in practice.

 

[robus]

Thanks for linking an official response. I just prefer my way of doing things because I don't have players sit there in initiative asking why they rolled it, the reason for the encounter starting is always obvious and clear to the party, surprise is never wasted (IE half the first round no one knows what's going on till the person who decided to attack gets his turn and other comical situations that harm immersion), etc.. I just found that this solves the problems the group and I noticed when we started playing 5e and I haven't had complaints in practice.

I wouldn't have the PCs be vulnerable to an attack out of the blue. That's too much of a DM gotcha to be fun. I might have an NPC that's with them take an arrow that starts the combat. But if the PCs feel like they could get hit by surprise at any moment they're going to be inching along the campaign. Of course they can fire on (and hit) NPCs without warning. It's all about the fun.

 

[Valador]

I just prefer my way of doing things because I don't have players sit there in initiative asking why they rolled it, the reason for the encounter starting is always obvious and clear to the party, surprise is never wasted (IE half the first round no one knows what's going on till the person who decided to attack gets his turn and other comical situations that harm immersion), etc..

Considering initiative is only used in combat, the players will know. To the characters, since they're surprised, they can't act or do anything anyways and each round is 6 seconds and everyones turns basically happen at the same time, it's not like the character is willy nilly standing around doing nothing for an odd period of time waiting.

The party is strolling along.
DM - "roll initiative"
Players all roll higher than the enemy.
DM - "you've all rolled higher than the enemy but you're surprised and cannot act until your next turn, you may react after your first turn."
DM - "the enemy leaps from the bushes and attacks so and so."
combat as usual from here on out

I don't really see this as breaking the "immersion" that bad. The players know something is happening, but unless they meta game, the characters are none the wiser during those first 6 seconds...

 

[Noctem]

I wouldn't have the PCs be vulnerable to an attack out of the blue. That's too much of a DM gotcha to be fun. I might have an NPC that's with them take an arrow that starts the combat. But if the PCs feel like they could get hit by surprise at any moment they're going to be inching along the campaign. Of course they can fire on (and hit) NPCs without warning. It's all about the fun.

PC's and NPC's are equally vulnerable if an attack does in fact kick off an encounter. I don't allow more than one attack though, even in the case of characters with the Extra Attack feature for example or spells with multiple attacks. It's just one attack resolved and then surprise being figured out and finally initiative and round 1. It's also a question of not breaking Wheaton's Law. I don't do the gotcha! game at my table, though it has happened that situations have resembled it to be completely honest. It's also about player buy-in. Before using any houserule I always suggest it to the players and then a vote takes place to see if it will be used or not. It's open discussion.

So far, I haven't seen a slower pace of play caused by this ruling. Most of the time the players act the same way they would normally act from what I've seen.

 

[Noctem]

Considering initiative is only used in combat, the players will know. To the characters, since they're surprised, they can't act or do anything anyways and each round is 6 seconds and everyones turns basically happen at the same time, it's not like the character is willy nilly standing around doing nothing for an odd period of time waiting.

The party is strolling along.
DM - "roll initiative"
Players all roll higher than the enemy.
DM - "you've all rolled higher than the enemy but you're surprised and cannot act until your next turn, you may react after your first turn."
DM - "the enemy leaps from the bushes and attacks so and so."
combat as usual from here on out

I don't really see this as breaking the "immersion" that bad. The players know something is happening, but unless they meta game, the characters are none the wiser during those first 6 seconds...

Why are we rolling initiative? Oh the bad guy is attacking us? Where is he? Oh we don't know? Ok.. Oh I rolled a high initiative! Where's the bad guy I want to attack him before he hurts us! Oh I can't because I'm surprised? But why am I surprised if nothing has happened yet and I haven't seen the bad guy or anything...??

That's simply a quick off-hand scenario which happens often enough that I decided to remove the possibility for it to happen. Note that even if a single attack does cause the encounter the begin, it still has to hit and so on. No special bonuses involved or given for this ruling.