D&D 5E When to Roll Initiative

[DEFCON 1]

Basically it sounds like if someone in your game declares an attack before you call for initiative they get a "surprise round" and possibly get to go first in the next round as well. The way I'd do this is to roll initiative as soon as the PCs and orcs spot each other. Then if the rash PC wants to start shooting on her turn she can do that, and initiative order would continue from there.

Yup... I run my game from a much more narrativistic point of view. I go with my gut on whatever makes "sense" based upon how the story is playing out. So if two groups are talking to each other and there's no combat yet, I don't roll initiative. There's no need. It's only when someone starts combat that I'll have people roll it. As the DM (and thus controlling the monsters) if the rash member of the party decides to shoot first while others are talking, I'll make the immediate decision as to whether they were expecting something like that or had put their guard down during parlay. From my earlier post, I was talking from the POV that the monsters were not expecting an attack during the parlay, and thus the initiative rolls were between the rash party member and whomever was close enough in the party to actually affect the rash member's action. Thus the "surprise" round of the rash member's attack.

But, had I determined that one or more of the monsters DID expect a possible attack during the parlay, then I'd have everyone roll initiative to see if any enemy paying attention possibly was fast enough to react to the rash person before the rash person got their attack off. I might decide that a few of the monsters (like primarily the one or two actually talking to the party) might not actually get to react during this fast phase (IE they were "surprised" by the rash member's attack), and the same might hold true for some of the party too (like the one talking or if someone else was scouting on the edges of the circle or otherwise generally not paying attention toward the rash character.)

This kind of stuff can and will change every combat, because it all get put through the prism of what makes sense narratively for what is going on... not because there is a "format" to how the game mechanics run combat. Other people might run combats almost every time in this set pattern of mechanics because that's how they roll... which is cool. More power to them. That's not how I like doing mine though, so it rarely can be put down in that kind of official "format" for every case.

I didn't start this thread to rehash the arguments from the Assassinate thread, but it did bring these differences in when folks roll initiative to my attention, which is why I started it. I'll just say that running surprise this way has only two slight differences from the RAW. One, the surprised don't get to take reactions after their turns, and two, Assassinate can be used on them after their turns. Oh, that's right, they don't have turns.

Yup... the Assassinate thing was merely an example of what I feel got lost if I didn't run things from a narrative perspective. Format-driven game mechanics dictating something can't happen even though the story being told says that it probably should. The Surprise Round being dictated completely off of declared group DEX (Stealth) checks being another one. I don't need active declarations of Stealth and rolls being made to be the only factor in figuring out whether a Surprise Round can happen... I let the story tell me whether or not a surprise attack can be made on either side. If it makes sense within the narrative we are all creating together at the table... the game mechanics oftentimes be damned.

 

[redrick]

I use the latter understanding of initiative because, for example, in the case of PCs surprising a monster, I never know if the PCs are going to attack in the first round. Of course, if they have surprise they in all probability will, so they can attack without being attacked, but the situation arises at times when it is more beneficial for the surprising party to use the first round to better position themselves for the attack. They might opt not to attack at all but rather use the opportunity to avoid fighting if they are somehow outmatched. Because they have surprised the monster, I want to give them that first round to do whatever they want, but since surprise is determined at the beginning of an encounter the concept has no relevance outside of combat. Of course, if they remain hidden into subsequent rounds they still have the benefits of being hidden, but they lose the element of surprise. This makes narrative sense because surprise requires that you act quickly and suddenly. If you wait, you lose the opportunity. So that's why I don't tie the beginning of combat to a hostile action, but rather to the existence of a hostile attitude and a proximity between parties that would make that relevant. It leaves the choices made in the first round, after combat has begun, wide open as far as what individuals will do with their turns.

Hi Hriston, are you saying that, if the party were hidden from their opponents, but nearby, and wanted to continue moving in a hidden way, you would:

a) check for initiative
b) after one round, even if the party has done nothing to reveal its presence, consider the opponents to have "taken their turn" and no longer be surprised?

That doesn't make much sense to me. I guess I understand, in cyclical initiative, why you might roll initiative during stealth maneuvers: if one character blows his stealth roll, the remaining characters in the initiative order can still change their mind and dive in for an attack, salvaging some element of surprise. But then, if no noises are made, the opponents cease to be surprised?

 

[Hriston]

Hi Hriston, are you saying that, if the party were hidden from their opponents, but nearby, and wanted to continue moving in a hidden way, you would:

a) check for initiative
b) after one round, even if the party has done nothing to reveal its presence, consider the opponents to have "taken their turn" and no longer be surprised?

Hi. Thanks for asking. The short answer is yes, in my game surprise is "use it or lose it." Once surprise has been determined at the start of the encounter it can't be extended into subsequent rounds by holding off the attack.

The way I'd handle the situation above, just for clarity, is this:

Before the encounter, the party has told me they are moving slowly and stealthily toward the location. I have decided conditions allow them to hide when they arrive, so when they come within encounter distance of their opponents, I ask them for stealth checks. If they are successful then their opponents are surprised. Assuming their opponents are not also trying to conceal themselves, I tell the party about the presence of their opponents, how many, how far, and in what direction. I do not tell the party, however, whether their opponents have noticed them, so the players don't yet know if they have surprised their opponents or not. Of course, they do know what their die rolls were, which should give them some indication as to their success, and I also don't describe the opponents as having noticed them, but they don't know for sure that they are hidden.

Then I ask everyone to roll initiative, and I roll initiative for the opponents. Once initiative order has been established, we proceed to round one. I ask the players what they want to do. If they attack it will be with surprise, and I will describe their opponents as being caught off guard, taking reactions when appropriate, but not attacking or making any significant movements.

If they decide to not attack, for whatever reason, they can do whatever they'd like to with their turns, and as long as they don't make a bunch of noise or reveal themselves in some way, they will remain hidden into round two. I will describe their opponents as doing pretty much nothing, having conversations or performing whatever mundane tasks they were doing when the party arrived. Keep in mind, though, that my players know they can only surprise in this round, so the decision to not attack isn't taken lightly if that is what they are trying to do.

If for some reason the players wait until round two to attack, which hasn't actually come up for us to tell the truth, then the party's opponents would not be surprised and would get to react to the attack normally, with full actions and movement on their initiative. If one of the opponents happens to have a higher initiative than the player that makes the initial attack, however, then that character would be "initiative purged", the idea being that he had already devoted his action on that turn to whatever he was doing before the attack. So there could be some strategy to delaying a second round attack until later in the initiative order, but like I said, it really hasn't come up for my group.

That doesn't make much sense to me. I guess I understand, in cyclical initiative, why you might roll initiative during stealth maneuvers: if one character blows his stealth roll, the remaining characters in the initiative order can still change their mind and dive in for an attack, salvaging some element of surprise. But then, if no noises are made, the opponents cease to be surprised?

To help make some narrative sense of this I can provide a quote from Prussian general and military theorist, Carl von Clausewitz.

The backbone of surprise is fusing speed with secrecy.
-Carl von Clausewitz

The idea is that if you wait too long you lose the element of surprise, but how long is that? In the case of D&D, the time-limit is built in. Surprise only happens in the first round.

To understand this from the perspective of the surprised opponents, you have to ask what surprise actually is. I would say that narratively being surprised is not being unable to act or move when you want to. To me that makes no narrative sense. To me it seems that surprise is being a little behind because your attacker got a head start on you. They know they're in an encounter and you don't. The game imposes a mechanical advantage to simulate this fiction. You can act and they can't, but only for their first turn.

So, from the gamist perspective now, having surprise gives you a one-turn head start against your opponents. You can choose to do whatever you want with that head start. If you choose not to attack, that doesn't mean you didn't get the head start. Your opponents were still unable to do anything with their turns. If you make that choice it would probably be for a very good reason, like taking a turn to get buffed before the fight, or moving into a position that would give you advantage for the entire fight, or escaping with your life if you deem your opponents are too strong now that you've had a look at them. So you're still getting something for having surprised your opponents.

I don't believe that delaying the attack should give you endless rounds of your opponents doing nothing. That would break the fiction in another way. You could set a limit on how long a stealth check was good for, but to me that's just messy unless there's a fictional reason like your opponents have set a watch that comes around periodically, forcing the fiction to conform to a rather gamist agenda that doesn't really work for a lot of situations. Since we have a defined benefit for surprising your opponents, then (one free round of movement and action), I like to put the choice in front of my players right at the start of combat. Either use it to attack, or to get a head start in some other way.

 

[Celtavian]

Right, I just agreed with you that rolling initiative at the beginning is the way to go. I didn't say you need to attack right after initiative. I don't know where you're getting that. Initiative is a Dex check that is good for the entire encounter for the purpose of deciding the order actions are taken in. I think we're on the same page about this.



This is open to some interpretation. The timing of the Ready action requires the trigger to have finished before you can take the readied action. Since drawing a weapon is part of the Attack action, my ruling was that Greedo be allowed to complete his attack before Han takes his readied shot. This is because Greedo wouldn't have been drawing his blaster if he weren't attacking with it. Drawing and firing really aren't two separate actions.

But even if you disagree with that interpretation and say that drawing the weapon in itself constitutes the trigger, Greedo would still be allowed to finish drawing his blaster. At that point both Han and Greedo are pointing their blasters at each other and are both about to press the trigger. How do you decide who gets to shoot first? Initiative answers that question very well in my opinion because it tells us who's turn it is.

Not how I would play it. If Greedo is killed by Han's blaster shot when he goes for his blaster, he's dead and gets to do what dead people do: fall to the ground and look dead.

 

[Celtavian]

Greedo already had his pistol drawn, pointed at Han. Han made a wisdom (insight) check and determined that Greedo thought "dead" was better than "alive." Greedo had an action readied to shoot Han if Han tried to escape or draw his weapon.

Han used charisma (deception) to distract Greedo, moving his hand high against the wall ("I don't have it on me.") That distraction gave him advantage on his dexterity (stealth) check to draw his blaster under the table without Greedo noticing, then fire at Greedo. Han rolled very well, scoring a critical hit to "fry poor Greedo" and killed him outright. Greedo did not have an opportunity to use his reaction to attack Han, despite having that attack readied.

Good write up. Works outside of the current 5E rules and would require a bit of DM intervention, but is within the scope of the rules.

 

[Hriston]

Not how I would play it. If Greedo is killed by Han's blaster shot when he goes for his blaster, he's dead and gets to do what dead people do: fall to the ground and look dead.

When Greedo's initiative comes up I'd have him make a death saving throw.

 

[Celtavian]

When Greedo's initiative comes up I'd have him make a death saving throw.

He can do that while lying there looking dead.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Hi. Thanks for asking. The short answer is yes, in my game surprise is "use it or lose it." Once surprise has been determined at the start of the encounter it can't be extended into subsequent rounds by holding off the attack.

The way I'd handle the situation above, just for clarity, is this:

Before the encounter, the party has told me they are moving slowly and stealthily toward the location. I have decided conditions allow them to hide when they arrive, so when they come within encounter distance of their opponents, I ask them for stealth checks. If they are successful then their opponents are surprised. Assuming their opponents are not also trying to conceal themselves, I tell the party about the presence of their opponents, how many, how far, and in what direction. I do not tell the party, however, whether their opponents have noticed them, so the players don't yet know if they have surprised their opponents or not. Of course, they do know what their die rolls were, which should give them some indication as to their success, and I also don't describe the opponents as having noticed them, but they don't know for sure that they are hidden.

Then I ask everyone to roll initiative, and I roll initiative for the opponents. Once initiative order has been established, we proceed to round one. I ask the players what they want to do. If they attack it will be with surprise, and I will describe their opponents as being caught off guard, taking reactions when appropriate, but not attacking or making any significant movements.

If they decide to not attack, for whatever reason, they can do whatever they'd like to with their turns, and as long as they don't make a bunch of noise or reveal themselves in some way, they will remain hidden into round two. I will describe their opponents as doing pretty much nothing, having conversations or performing whatever mundane tasks they were doing when the party arrived. Keep in mind, though, that my players know they can only surprise in this round, so the decision to not attack isn't taken lightly if that is what they are trying to do.

If for some reason the players wait until round two to attack, which hasn't actually come up for us to tell the truth, then the party's opponents would not be surprised and would get to react to the attack normally, with full actions and movement on their initiative. If one of the opponents happens to have a higher initiative than the player that makes the initial attack, however, then that character would be "initiative purged", the idea being that he had already devoted his action on that turn to whatever he was doing before the attack. So there could be some strategy to delaying a second round attack until later in the initiative order, but like I said, it really hasn't come up for my group.



To help make some narrative sense of this I can provide a quote from Prussian general and military theorist, Carl von Clausewitz.



The idea is that if you wait too long you lose the element of surprise, but how long is that? In the case of D&D, the time-limit is built in. Surprise only happens in the first round.

To understand this from the perspective of the surprised opponents, you have to ask what surprise actually is. I would say that narratively being surprised is not being unable to act or move when you want to. To me that makes no narrative sense. To me it seems that surprise is being a little behind because your attacker got a head start on you. They know they're in an encounter and you don't. The game imposes a mechanical advantage to simulate this fiction. You can act and they can't, but only for their first turn.

So, from the gamist perspective now, having surprise gives you a one-turn head start against your opponents. You can choose to do whatever you want with that head start. If you choose not to attack, that doesn't mean you didn't get the head start. Your opponents were still unable to do anything with their turns. If you make that choice it would probably be for a very good reason, like taking a turn to get buffed before the fight, or moving into a position that would give you advantage for the entire fight, or escaping with your life if you deem your opponents are too strong now that you've had a look at them. So you're still getting something for having surprised your opponents.

I don't believe that delaying the attack should give you endless rounds of your opponents doing nothing. That would break the fiction in another way. You could set a limit on how long a stealth check was good for, but to me that's just messy unless there's a fictional reason like your opponents have set a watch that comes around periodically, forcing the fiction to conform to a rather gamist agenda that doesn't really work for a lot of situations. Since we have a defined benefit for surprising your opponents, then (one free round of movement and action), I like to put the choice in front of my players right at the start of combat. Either use it to attack, or to get a head start in some other way.

I would just ask for another stealth check to gain surprise again. Just leaving the current encounter and start the next. To gain surprise again you have to reposition your group and make another stealth check.

 

[epithet]

...The short answer is yes, in my game surprise is "use it or lose it." Once surprise has been determined at the start of the encounter it can't be extended into subsequent rounds by holding off the attack.
...

I'm sorry, but that just makes no sense at all.

So if your party sneaks up on the orcs' campsite undetected, and they remain hidden to listen to the warchief's orders or to make sure they see all the prisoners they're hoping to rescue, that when they subsequently burst out of hiding - having been undetected the whole time - the orcs would not be surprised?

You cannot lose surprise until you are detected, unless the surprised creatures are threatened by some other thing that puts them on alert. You can say that surprise only happens in the first round of combat, but a round in which the attackers remain hidden and undetected and do not attack is not a round of combat, it is a round of watching and waiting.

 

[Hriston]

He can do that while lying there looking dead.

That's usually how it's done, isn't it? I, for one, would never have someone roll a death save while fully conscious and in perfect health. I think it would cheapen the mechanic.