When to roll initiative?

[MerakSpielman]

My memory fails me.

Don't the books say to roll initiative as soon as either group (friend or foe) is aware of the other?

Tom's thread about sneaking into an enemy camp made me think of this.

In his scenario, rogues sneaked into the camp and coup-de-graced the bad guys. There was a lot of discussion about whether or not they could do this, since a CDG is a full round action, and they only get a partial action in a surprise round.

But doesn't that depend on when initiative is rolled?

I would have made them roll initative and move through the camp, playing out spot checks and whatnot on the guards turns and making the rogues act round-by-round.

Would it still count as a surprise round when they CDG the bad guys if it's not actually the FIRST round of initiative?

Or would I be rolling initiative at the wrong time here?

 

[LokiDR]

Initive is rolled whenever one side knows about the other and considers them an opponent.

If I don't know if there is anything beyond the door, and the orcs behind the door don't know about me, we roll when I open the door, no surprise.

If we were arguing, initive is rolled when the first punch is thrown/weapon drawn, no surprize. Untill then, we aren't "opponents" we are just arguing.

In the case of the rogue, he should have been on initive the moment he decided he was going to CdG the sleeping man. That could well have been before he entered the camp. Before that, they weren't "opponents" as I am using the word, they were just people who might spot him. This prevents initive being rolled every time some one tries to hide, slowing down the game.

IMO, of course. YMMV.

At any rate, I am sure that the hiding rogue could have used the surprize round to stay hidden, then used his first full round to CdG

 

[Maitre Du Donjon]

At any rate, I am sure that the hiding rogue could have used the surprize round to stay hidden, then used his first full round to CdG

I would have ruled as such as well..

Maitre D

 

[dcollins]

Don't the books say to roll initiative as soon as either group (friend or foe) is aware of the other?

That isn't what I see in the books.

PHB p. 120: "At the start of battle, each combatant makes a single initiative check."

PHB p. 279: "Before the first round of combat, each combatant makes a single initiative check."

DMG p. 61: An example of one side being aware of the other and being allowed several rounds of activity in advance of combat. Jozan hears some orcs, takes time to cast 3 spells, and when the orcs finally discover him, "he'd better hope he gets the higher result on his initiative check."

Would it still count as a surprise round when they CDG the bad guys if it's not actually the FIRST round of initiative?

By a strict reading of the rules, a surprise round occurs prior to initiative (PHB p. 120). Your example rogues would only have an opportunity to "start full-round action", getting the CDG half-done (PHB p. 127). Initiative would be rolled, giving the targets at least the chance to win and react in time. When the rogues' initiative came up (possibly first if they win), they can complete the CDG with a standard action and possibly move away with their MEA.

 

[diaglo]

Re: Re: When to roll initiative?

By a strict reading of the rules, a surprise round occurs prior to initiative (PHB p. 120). Your example rogues would only have an opportunity to "start full-round action", getting the CDG half-done (PHB p. 127). Initiative would be rolled, giving the targets at least the chance to win and react in time. When the rogues' initiative came up (possibly first if they win), they can complete the CDG with a standard action and possibly move away with their MEA.

and since they are helpless, they don't get an AoO.

who sleeps with a weapon ready to strike?

 

[Creamsteak]

Re: Re: Re: When to roll initiative?

who sleeps with a weapon ready to strike?

Monks. Maybe mages.

 

[diaglo]

that was a rhetorical question. in D&D i hope all classes are ready to rumble...

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re: Re: When to roll initiative?

and since they are helpless, they don't get an AoO.

It depends whether they were woken up by the first half of the CDG.

If they're awake, they're flat-footed and prone, but they're no longer helpless.

And if they have Combat Reflexes, they still get their AoO.

-Hyp.

 

[Caliban]

Re: Re: Re: When to roll initiative?

and since they are helpless, they don't get an AoO.

who sleeps with a weapon ready to strike?

Gloves of Storing baby!

 

[Norfleet]

Re: Re: Re: Re: When to roll initiative?

It depends whether they were woken up by the first half of the CDG.

I can't quite see somebody being awakened by a part of a CDG. That's the part where the attacker simply is lining his weapon up. Unless the attacker's weapon contains a number of loud, rattling parts, performing this act is silent, and thus, there's no possible way a sleeping defender could spontaneously react to this.

Of course, it's possible the defender is awakened by the NEXT half, the part where he is actually stabbed or smacked, but by then, it's too late.