When You Keep Killing Characters?

[AdmundfortGeographer]

In my opinion, death must have a sting. There must be some motivation to not just die. Some of these players would bring in characters, have them commit suicide and leave their equipment for the party until they got very wealthy.

Time to start having equipment roll appropriate saves when energy damage is done? Unless you are fine with this wealthy accumulation.

 

[Mark CMG]

You could split the group and run one with the same level of tactical combat and another without it (or someone else could run the non-tactical group).

 

[JuniperBush]

In my opinion, death must have a sting. There must be some motivation to not just die.

While true, it gets pointless after a while. I was in a campaign a while ago, I missed one session and my almost 5th level character died. So I brought in a character halfway through level 4. I got to use him for about 3 sessions before he was taken out in a surprise round. He was at full health and one attack did 25 damage exactly, enough to get him to -10. So I was allowed to bring in another character at the beginning of 4th level, but for the "story's sake" I had to be rescued which was near the end of the session. Meaning that I got little to no exp for that session and was barely 4th level, there was one guy in the middle of 6th level and the rest were a quarter of the way through 7th level. Needless to say, I was done. Next death would have put me at 3rd level. Being 3rd with a group of 3rds is great, being 3rd level in a group of sevens and eights is no fun at all.

Some of these players would bring in characters, have them commit suicide and leave their equipment for the party until they got very wealthy.
Retreater

This is your fault. If you are going to let people cherry pick their items, then have them pay full gold but use the rule that the items are specifically crafted for that character and not useable by anyone else. There is a rule in the DMG that talks about this, that a caster can create an item at a reduced price in gold or exp or both if they limit the item to be usable only by a certain alignment or certain class or some other stipulation. This solves the problem of over the top party wealth.

JuniperBush

*edited for spelling*

 

[Old Gumphrey]

Continuous is DM fault. If you know they can't handle something I dunno why you would throw it at them just because you think they should be able to beat it. Even if its just because they're poor players, tone it down.

I used to do the same as you, I thought "this will be so hard, they'll love the challange!" No. Tone it down.

I agree with this 100%. You know they suck at tactics, they're all mixed levels, they have no burst spell power due to the recharge variant, and you're throwing combat monster CR 8 outsiders at them? Outsiders are already more-challenge-for-your-buck-for-their-CR-number.

I don't understand the "why are my players so stupid" line that is so often given by DMs. I'm roughly 5 times better than any of my players at building characters and using tactics. I've done things like get half-wipes with an equivalent CR encounter just because I use every sneaky tactic in the book and play to the party's weakness. And that's what you have to be careful of--you know all their strengths and weaknesses.

You seem to have an imagined idea that your party is strong and they should be able to handle this really hard encounter, but truthfully (as was shown) they didn't stand a chance. Honestly it sounds like you just want to feel superior to them...I mean you call them stupid, and then throw really hard challenges at them when its obvious they can't handle something weaker than your current encounter. I wouldn't be surprised if you sigh loudly when players don't perform smart tactics that you thought of, and gripe about how badly they are playing. I used to have a DM just like that.

Used to.

 

[Warren Okuma]

Well, if they die stupid deaths, then yeah I punish them.

Fair, but there is a difference between a rebuke verses certain death.

I have players in the campaign who have never died. It's the same couple of people who die every session.

Ah, I see the problem. Those tactical characters that do not die, want the newbies to die (consciously or unconsciously) so they can take their stuff so they can buy magic and equipment, so that they would not die and continue to let the newbies to do stupid stuff so that they will die so they can take their stuff.

And until they can learn some basic tactics on a player's level, I don't think they should play mid or high level characters.

Since you are complaining why don't you do something about it. Tactics sessions? Training sessions? Let us know how it turns out.

They have more wealth than the DMG average. The reason why: characters keep dying and the others keep taking their stuff. So they could afford Raise Deads.

No, they need the money to stay alive. That's why they are still alive.

In my opinion, death must have a sting.

One level is a sting. Two levels is murder and a hint not to play your game and to run their own.

There must be some motivation to not just die.

One level is motivation. Or at the bottom of the highest level is motivation. Any more is just sadistic.

Some of these players would bring in characters, have them commit suicide and leave their equipment for the party until they got very wealthy.
Retreater

Won't work in my campaign. After one suicide: Me: "Hold on, your new character shows up only when I work you in." "What's your background? Do me a paragraph." "Can't have the same background or same class, do something else." Or if I detect a Treasure Galleon (a suicide) "the king's son owes you a favor and will avenge your death."

 

[Retreater]

Well, we're going to GURPs and running the combat lite section, so it won't be tactical, at least not yet. So there is that. Also, looking at the rules, it looks like you have more of a chance to not get killed outright by a single attack or two (unlike D&D). Also, I won't be running a pre-fabricated adventure, so I'll be able to better suit the challenges to the abilities of the characters (and their players).

So I really believe it will work out okay.

When we do go back to D&D, I think I'm going to be very cautious about running pre-published adventures.

Retreater

 

[blargney the second]

Btw, one variant rule that can seriously cut down on lethality without significantly altering gameplay is Damage Conversion from UA. We're using it in the game I'm DMing right now, and it's great.

It's really simple: you convert lethal damage to subdual damage equal to your armor bonus. You still go down after the same amount of damage - the difference is that you're unconscious rather than dead!
-blarg

 

[Warren Okuma]

Well, we're going to GURPs and running the combat lite section, so it won't be tactical, at least not yet. So there is that. Also, looking at the rules, it looks like you have more of a chance to not get killed outright by a single attack or two (unlike D&D). Also, I won't be running a pre-fabricated adventure, so I'll be able to better suit the challenges to the abilities of the characters (and their players).

So I really believe it will work out okay.

I hope so too, but I'm not optimistic.

When we do go back to D&D, I think I'm going to be very cautious about running pre-published adventures.

Let's see...
You make players take new characters that is two levels lower and then you wonder about why they keep on dying? They are two levels lower, that's why. Two levels lower is certain death. Oh, you noticed. Hint: You made a thread about this. And you blame the players for dying? No. This is your fault for not giving them enough levels to survive.

You don't know how to stop treasure galleons. This is your fault as well.

You complain that the players don't know tactics, but you don't bother teaching them. This is again, your fault.

And now you are blaming the module. So, you can't modify the module? At all? Why not? This is again your fault yet again.

I figured it out. The problem is you and not your players. You need to blame yourself before you blame others. You must actively try to fix the problem, and not just whine about it. So, do not whine, solve the problem. You can do it. You can grow. You can teach.

You can learn from this, or they can quit on you, or decide to GM a game.

 

[Darklone]

I'll address several points, even if I am not sure if it's already too late:
- group size
- tactical errors
- players not learning from errors
- making new chars all the time

This is how I do it:

• If you have groups with more than the typical number of players, higher EL encounters can be more deadly than they seem. You have 7 players around level 5? Their level looks right for that EL 9 encounter, but if it's a single monster, this can lead to problems. Check out one of the many huge discussions on this topic here on the board, you'll find a lot of advice. I rather increase the number of opponents than powering up monsters to adjust to greater group size.
• When I DM noobs or a group that is tactically.... weak, then I either play slowly... and show variation after variation... or like last time with a group of 9 newbies: I ask them what they want to do and then I DO THE TURN FOR THEM AND EXPLAIN IT. This may seem like a lot of time... but it worked fast with players who I was told had a learning resistance of 999.
• Talk to them. Explain it to them. After the game. Go drink a beer with them and chat. It works in two of three cases.
• If a player makes his third char after dying, I'll have a talk with him and give him and archer or something similar. A survivor char. Assuming it was his fault that the PC died and not simply bad luck.

...
You complain that the players don't know tactics, but you don't bother teaching them. This is again, your fault.

And now you are blaming the module. So, you can't modify the module? At all? Why not? This is again your fault yet again.

I was surprised to hear that the players didn't kill all the mooks first before they attacked the BBEG.