D&D 5E Where are the options?

delericho

Legend
Honestly, it seems like a decreasing number of complaints.

Speaking for myself, it was partly an acceptance that WotC have their strategy and aren't going to change it, making repeated complaints pointless; and it was partly a realisation that, as much as I like most of 5e, it doesn't do what I want it to do.

And it was mostly due to the DM's Guild providing a multitude of options of all sorts. Sure, there's a need to go digging, but that was no less true of many of WotC's own 3e books.
 

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sim-h

Explorer
Giving my personal perspective on this, I am very pleased this is WotCs approach. I stopped playing D&D 20 years ago in a bout of 'realism-itis'. I tried some other systems but found them overcomplicated (go figure...) so I stopped with RPGs altogether.

I'm now recovered from 'realisim-itis', abetted by decades of design discussion and concensus on what 'Hit Points' actually mean, etc. I heartily approve of what's happening with 5e and myself and all my players are enjoying it! (apart from the guy who walked out over 'Hail of Thorns' not working every single hit for one minute but only the first one...). I do NOT want to see fifty rules and variant books on the shelf, unless they are adventure paths. For me it's DMs guild ftw for people that want options.
 


AaronOfBarbaria

Adventurer
Never did I think people would fight to claim the middle ground.

Zapp, on the high ground
When you put it like that, it sounds even sillier than I thought it to be when Max was trying to stuff nonsense into my mouth and pretend as if I had actually said it... but as you can probably see from his reply to you, Max likes making really silly statements in such a way that one might expect facts to be what are being shared, though they there are plainly no facts involved.
 

That's a hopeless stance to take. So you honestly mean "let's commit to never making changes ever because that's the only thing keeping us from shoveling out crapware"?
That's an extreme way to put it.
But in both 4e and Pathfinder, because updates were possible and became the norm, there was a slow decline in quality that ended in a terrible book and a sudden re-commitment to better testing and editing.
Human nature?

I'm not familiar with Paizo route?
Each time Paizo does a new print run, they do an errata pass. Which has slowly expanded to include small rule fixes and rebalancing.

Who said anything about an update?

By my scheme, the first printing's classes would be as valid and welcome to the gaming table as printing #20.

Nothing would get "updated". You would have new content just like WotC plans, only that new content would be carefully selected to shore up existing choices and not only add completely new choices.
But you said the pagination would stay the same.How can you have a new ranger option, new spells, new feats, etc and keep the same number of pages?
Either the content gets replaced or the books is expanded. If content is replaced, it's an update.

I give you that a DM with an older PHB could want to check your newer PHB if for some reason she doesn't trust you when you say your Ranger can invoke Ranger's Mark (say) as a class feature instead of having to cast Hunter's Mark as a concentration spell. So bring it.

And if another player at that table also wants the new Ranger feature (despite also having the old PHB), why, let him!
This still gets into the issue of a player bringing a new and different book to the table and expecting it to be automatically accepted. I can imagine some DMs not reacting well to a player springing a book with different content they're unfamiliar with.
To say nothing of the Adventurer's League, with one player with the "fixed" class that is doing much better than the other player.

Any time new content is added - and this is new content - it needs to be approved by the DM. And some DMs only want the "core" game. When you introduce a revision, it's causing a conflict, since the assumption is it's "the core rules" but it's still a change and new content and needs to be vetted by the DM. That's problematic. And introducing a revision means work for the DM since they need to go through the updates and see what's been changed and what's the same, which is very different than just reading brand new content.

In practice, the changes wouldn't be so many. Most players and DMs would snap them up easy.
"In practice" the changes were 3.5e, as that was the only time WotC has done something like this. (If you don't count Essentials.)
"In theory" the changes might not be many, but that hasn't worked well in the past. And people are still sore about it.

The important part is to stay away from "updating" the game. No new rules, only options to fix what doesn't get used much.
Which is telling game designers not to design games.
The catch is where to draw the line. Only underpowered options? What about overpowered options? Unclear rules? Rules that are clear but not working as intended?

A bit doom and gloom, but... you did read my suggestion to tell the player base that this kind of update won't happen again for at least 24 months.

Or some other sufficiently distant time that the market research dept is reasonably confident most buyers can't hold off making their purchase that long :cool:
Which just puts people in a position where they have to wait or buy content they know isn't "finished" and needs to be "patched". The longer people have to wait just means they get antsier wondering what will or will not be fixed.
When you know the update is coming, the content loses appeal. I know that during my 4e days, I banned PHB3 and Martial Power 2 at my table until the first updates, knowing it'd only be a few months.

I don't agree.

A visual cue to make it easy to see which printing you've got yes, but basically stick to the same appearance to give the notion "it's the same book - you and I are playing the same game".

I believe by keeping the same cover you send a strong signal that the book is the same, the playing base is the same, the game is one and the same.
The trade dress should be the same, as should the name and colour tone. It's not like people get confused and think that Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone is a different book when the cover changes.
As long as it's called "PHB Revised" it should be fine.

But, honestly, the more I think about it, the more I really don't want a revision of the PHB. Not until sales lag and they can do a complete interior overhaul. But even then, that should be a look change at most, like what they did in late 2e.

I think that the important thing is for WotC not to ask folk to repurchase the book.

They have always done that. A new edition, a new cash cow.

But the idea is to stick to the PHB as an evergreen.

So there should be no big marketing push, no loud trumpeting of "all new PHB".
So a publishing company should publish a book and not advertise and hype it?
WotC is a business not a charity. They're not here not to make money.
If they're making a new printing, they need to pay for that print run as well as the cost of the redesign and editing.


The more I think about this issue, the less I want/need the information in a physical book. A revised PHB just causes confusion and conflict, and only really matters to optimizers who want all their options to be strong. Meanwhile, having alternate content that fills the same niche just means less new options when we do get some of the rare new content. I'd rather see a new ranger or two that does something interesting and fun than a retread of a ranger we already have.

Variants released free online are different, since you can opt into that. And many of the fixes can be applied via the DMsGuild. Since DMs need to approve any new content anyway, there's no functional difference between an official book, and official PDF, and a 3rd Party/Fan published rules patch.
(A variant ranger is still problematic as it's unlikely to work with current & future subclasses, meaning it either has to replace the class or it won't receive updates.)

The need for official errata only exists in the strange space where DMs only play "by the rules" and don't house rule or change the rules. If DMs feel comfortable and are encouraged to make the game their own, then official updates mean less as DMs can balance and rebalance anything that's not working at their tables. We don't really need a revised Beast Master ranger as any DM who really feels strongly about it being underpowered has likely taken steps to fix it.
Official patches is last-decade game design thinking… Empowering DMs and giving them the tools to fix things themselves is a better tactic.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
That's an extreme way to put it.
But in both 4e and Pathfinder, because updates were possible and became the norm, there was a slow decline in quality that ended in a terrible book and a sudden re-commitment to better testing and editing.
Obvious reference to Heroes of Shadow, there, OK. I'm not that familiar with Pathfinder's publication history, what was their 'terrible book?'

But the "because updates: slow decline" hypothesis doesn't seem to fly for both. IDK about PF, but the decline of Essentials to HoS was pretty rapid, and mapped more to the withdraw of resources than the use of updates.

Maybe it's really happening on the other side of the equation, perception? The issuing of frequent errata, though delivering incremental improvement, results in the perception (at least, among some fans) that quality must have been low, while the absence of it (even if due to policy or lack of resources, and in the face of obvious problems) creates an impression of high quality?

This still gets into the issue of a player bringing a new and different book to the table and expecting it to be automatically accepted. I can imagine some DMs not reacting well to a player springing a book with different content they're unfamiliar with.
To say nothing of the Adventurer's League, with one player with the "fixed" class that is doing much better than the other player.
If the 'fixed' class is that much better, then it needed to be fixed (or it's been made broken). I doubt that'd happen, or, at least, happen consistently. The way the DM runs the game, the rulings he makes in game, the nature and variety of challenges he presents, can easily overwhelm the differences between a 'fixed' and 'broken' class, if such ideas really even have meaning in the context of 5e.

Any time new content is added - and this is new content - it needs to be approved by the DM. And some DMs only want the "core" game. When you introduce a revision, it's causing a conflict, since the assumption is it's "the core rules" but it's still a change and new content and needs to be vetted by the DM. That's problematic. And introducing a revision means work for the DM since they need to go through the updates and see what's been changed and what's the same, which is very different than just reading brand new content.
That touches on one thing the devs have come out and said, that errata wouldn't make sense for 5e because each DM has already 'made the game his own.' Maybe it's just putting a high-minded spin on a necessity of working with a much smaller staff, and maybe the positives of a slow pace of release are, too. But, that doesn't make the ideal expressed invalid.

"In practice" the changes were 3.5e, as that was the only time WotC has done something like this. (If you don't count Essentials.)
(And why wouldn't you.) ;)

Which is telling game designers not to design games.
I thought that was your position, not Zap's?

Since DMs need to approve any new content anyway, there's no functional difference between an official book, and official PDF, and a 3rd Party/Fan published rules patch.
There are huge differences in perception - including the perception of the DMs who are making that decision to opt in. An errata or clarification or a new printing has an air of 'officialness' that would convince many to adopt. A supplement, however official, is easily dismissed by the 'Core Only' set. 3pp is unofficial, but at least professional, and would find even less common adoption, and has earned a pretty poor reputation in the d20 era. Fan-made doesn't even have the air of 'professional' to mitigate against the loss of 'official.' Then there's the medium: an official book you can hand to the DM to take a look at has a better shot than a print out or url - dead-tree publication says it's good enough someone invested real money in a print run - that clearly (from experience) doesn't have to be very good, but it's a higher bar than posting something on the internet.

The need for official errata only exists in the strange space where DMs only play "by the rules" and don't house rule or change the rules.
To be fair, it's not a /strange/ space, it was seemingly the norm for a good 10 or 15 years for D&D, but it isn't the space where 5e has chosen to position itself.

Official patches is last-decade game design thinking… Empowering DMs and giving them the tools to fix things themselves is a better tactic.
It's 5e thinking, it's a better tactic for the position WotC is in with D&D atm, and it works very well for 5e, IMHO. And, it's true, it's not last-decade (or even last-two decade thinking). It's 1980s thinking.
 
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delericho

Legend
Each time Paizo does a new print run, they do an errata pass.

TSR did the same. And it makes sense - that's the opportunity to fix the small typos and other glitches, so better to take it than not. But...

Which has slowly expanded to include small rule fixes and rebalancing.

IMO, this is the point where it goes wrong - when you move from fixing errors and expand into making revisions. Errata should be for the former; the place for the latter is the new edition.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
But they don't want us to think about a new edition.

Under any name - no 5.5, no 5Essentials, no Advanced 5th Edition...

I quite like the idea of us all playing the exact same game, regardless of PHB printing
 

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